Private Thomas Jones 1st Batalion Welch Regiment

[Hollytree]

Phew, took ages to get here.........

I am at the moment researching for a family member who has a son in Army too, his grandfather Thomas Jones of Ton Pentre, Rhondda...........b c1884 son of Thomas JONES & Margaret ROBERTS.....coal miner before he enlisted,

He enlisted in 1915-demobbed 1919 died six months later.

Service no 30515 (we have his records that survive from A* and his medal card)

My main query is, are there surviving war diaries that could be accessed at The National Archives? And could any of you very clever military historians out there decipher his medical record from A* (I do have the images saved and made a half fist of transcribing - but some of the shorthand notes mean nothing to me)

I can upload some of them, but there are 10 images..............?

Thanks

Anne

[Hollytree]

Sorry meant to say that he had been posted to Salonika in 1917, was sent to Malta after contracting Malaria, and returned to UK Dec 1918. Family legend has it that he fell asleep on duty, and was nearly sentenced to death for that, but then the authorities found his illness.........it's the war diaries of the time he would have served in Salonika I am interested it..........

Anne

[clive_hughes]

Hi,

Firstly, the War Diaries of the 1st Welsh Regiment (28th Division) are held at the National Archives under headings WO 95 / 2277 for the period in France Jan-Oct 1915, and WO 95 / 4917 for Salonika Oct 1915 - April 1919. I'm not sure they're available online.

Thomas Jones' papers exist as selected documents (some being duplicates) in the Pensions series (WO 364), and do not constitute his full service file which may have been destroyed in bombing in 1940.

One of the main documents shown is the Casualty Form - Active Service which has a number of medical and other references. He seems to have kept out of hospitals etc. while in France from May 1915 onwards and landed in Salonika 27 November 1915. Then shown as admitted to Field Ambulances with Myalgia March 1916; rheumatism May 1916; corns June 1916; Field General Court Martial July 1916 sentenced 18 months imprisonment with hard labour, sentence suspended. Pity the main file with its "crime sheet" doesn't survive - it may be that this was the "sleeping on post" incident!

Nothing then till hospitalised with sprain / wound left foot March 1917 which seamlessly becomes an evacuation per HMHospital Ship Llandovery Castle to Malta on 7 April and admitted to hospital there with Malaria. He didn't return to Salonika till 28 Jany. 1918 and reached his unit on 11 March. In August-Sept 1918 hospitalised again, firstly with "NYD" (Not Yet Diagnosed) then "tender feet" which is changed to "ICT feet" - inflammation of the connective or connecting tissue of the feet. In October, goes down with influenza.

29 Oct 1918 starts off home to UK on leave, returning to Salonika 25 December, only to be sent home for Demob 5 January. Transferred to Army Reserve Class Z on 20 Feby 1919. His Army Form B179a is the medical report on him before transfer to reserve, in which it is claimed that he has suffered since February 1916 in Salonika with malaria and VDH - valvular disease of the heart. His symptoms are described in the usual almost illegible medical format. The "Chelsea" form recording a pension grant also states malaria due to DMS (?prob. Military Service) and agrees his troubles are attributable to war service as opposed to being pre-existing/aggravated by service. He was awarded 8 shillings 3 pence weekly for 32 weeks from 21 Feb 1919, a subsequent form adding more as a childrens' allowance. Pension was due to be reviewed 24 Feb 1920, and there is a note "Inform SWPC re. treatment" - possibly South Wales Pensions Committee?

I hope that sorts some of it out anyway. Others can amplify or correct what I've written.

Clive

[Hollytree]

Brilliant...........thanks so much, I had transcribed some of that, but not as comprehensive as you Clive! He died six months after discharge of heart disease, so the VDH ( which I had seen translated on another site) may have been the contributory factor together with malaria and flu.

I'll take trip to Kew sometime next month and order that reference.........I've looked at war diaries before, but that new catalogue Discovery failed to reveal anything. I should have looked at one of the help leaflets.........

He's buried on his own in Treorchy cemetery, with no headstone. Now to find if he is commemorated on any war memorial, because I understand that as he was a 'civilian' when he died he gets no recognition as a war casualty..............

Thanks again for your help

Anne

[clive_hughes]

Hi Anne,

I just used this facility to find the War Diary reference http://www.arcre.com/faq

His civilian status at time of death would be no bar to his being recognised by MOD/CWGC as a casualty of the Great War IF the cause of his death was held to be attributable to his military service, prior to 31 August 1921. For deaths after that date, regardless of cause, no serving or ex-serviceman has an official War Grave until 1939. Indeed, you will see on this Forum the efforts of many people to get such "non-commemorated" casualties fully recognised - and hundreds have been, in recent years. I myself have had one such accepted, and another case in the pipeline at present. Many men and women died from war-related causes but were missed by those responsible for commemoration. Is he on a local war memorial? - sometimes such men are, if the community accepted that his service contributed to his death, but this wasn't always the case.

I don't want to get your hopes up in this respect, because in the end the relevant authorities do have to accept these cases as valid; but if you and/or Jones' family wish to take this further, contact Terry Denham of this Forum and be prepared to amass copies of service records, full death certificate, newspaper obits, memorials and any other evidence to this end. If his last Occupation/Trade on his death cert was Service-related that would probably also help somewhat, indicating an ex-soldier who couldn't work because of his (pensionable) condition.

Let us know how you get on.

Clive

[Hollytree]

Yes I have spoken to Martin Everett former curator of the Museum at Brecon about this subject and he said much the same. His opinion was that the army once they had discharged a soldier that he would be classified as a civilian if he subsequently died soon after cessation of hostilities.........seems a bit harsh, but I suppose that they would have been overwhelmed...(shrugs shoulders) no evidence of compassion in the records.

His death certificate says endocarditis as the primary cause of death and Cardiac Dilation Heart Failure as secondary. Not mentioned as attributable. But as you say his medical record does say his illness and discharge was attributable to war service.

He's not my direct line ancestor, so probably not able to take up the cudgels to fight the case to get a CWGC headstone, but his grandson is interested (somewhat) but after having a conversation with Treorchy Cemetery, one has to jump hoops to get any sort of monumental stone placed at the cemetery firstly. I'm not sure he wants to go down that road, but I will ask.............

Thanks for that link, I haven't come across that one before. I generally go to Kew myself when I have a burning need to research (my main ancestors are early Royal Naval bods!) but that looks a good option. What search criteria did you use? I tried 1st Battalion Welch/Welsh and got 0 hits............

Anne

ps just looked at the death cert again and his occupation is "Coal Hewer & An Army Pensioner"

[clive_hughes]

Anne,

As far as search terms, just input Welsh Regiment WW1 and you'll get a whole load of units. The diaries are in archive reference number order, so the first one for 1/Welsh is 11th on the list, and the Salonika one about 28th place.

Yes, even during hostilities once a man was discharged the Army sort of lost interest, unless something happened to generate pension claims or there was further correspondence. One chap on file was discharged quite fit 1916 having served his full pre-war Regular term. A few days later he fell in a river and drowned. He has a war grave with CWGC headstone, but his death isn't mentioned in his file at all. The one whom I put forward as a non-commemorated casualty had served in France but contracted TB and was invalided home. He died of this war-originated complaint some months later in 1917 never having left hospital all the time he was in the UK, but had been discharged a few weeks beforehand. So he doesn't appear in the casualty list (Soldiers Died in the Great War) and had not been noted by the War Office to CWGC as being a war-related death; so no recognition of his resting place until recently. He doesn't have a CWGC headstone since there was already a legible civil stone, but the grave itself is fully recorded now as a War Grave.

As I said before, if you or the other relative you mention can just put forward via our member Terry Denham a scanned Death Cert and link to/copy of the Pension file, (with anything else such as newspaper coverage/war memorial if you can get them, but not essential) and his exact grave location, the MOD will consider his case. If they come down in favour of his being a war-related casualty you'll find the CWGC are the ones who will take on the job of tackling the Cemetery authorities, and should offer his family a standard CWGC headstone for the grave. I don't think it costs them anything (and they may even be able to choose the personal epitaph to be engraved).

Not pushing you, but you seem to have the essential paperwork already! Terry can tell you if anything else is needed.

Best of luck,

Clive

[Hollytree]

Hi Clive

Have had contact with Terry, and great, he thinks there might be a case for a CWCG...........I have got most of the paperwork needed, and will try to get the entry on the burial register just to dot the eyes and cross the teas! Thanks so much for that, and let's hope that this forgotten soldier gets some acknowledgement.

Thanks for all you help so far. I have other queries about my grandfather, but that'll keep for a while. I'm off to Somerset tomorrow to walk the Quantocks!

Anne

[clive_hughes]

Well done : keep us updated with progress and enjoy the walk!

Clive