Silence Dogood Posted 10 October , 2012 Share Posted 10 October , 2012 I have this picture of my great-grandfather. He's the one sitting on the back of the bike. I notice that both men have chevrons on their arms. What did those markings mean? http://i.imgur.com/eQxlg.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigjohn Posted 10 October , 2012 Share Posted 10 October , 2012 Hi Silence The two chaps are both Lance Corporals [At the time an appointment not a rank] The front chap has what appears to be an overseas chevron on his lower arm, one issued per year of overseas service, but issued later in the war [ I cannot remember when they were awarded] one red for 1914 the others were blue. Hope this helps John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silence Dogood Posted 10 October , 2012 Author Share Posted 10 October , 2012 Please explain what you mean by appointment as opposed to rank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Zieminski Posted 10 October , 2012 Share Posted 10 October , 2012 John - I think Overseas Service Chevrons were awarded from January 1918 onwards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdoyle Posted 10 October , 2012 Share Posted 10 October , 2012 The RAOC bucket on the hut - 1918 onwards. Chap at front looks like he might have a wound stripe on his lower left arm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silence Dogood Posted 10 October , 2012 Author Share Posted 10 October , 2012 The RAOC bucket on the hut - 1918 onwards. What's the significance of that bucket? Did they not make them before 1918? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tipperary Posted 10 October , 2012 Share Posted 10 October , 2012 Royal was not used as in the R of RAOC.john Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staffsyeoman Posted 11 October , 2012 Share Posted 11 October , 2012 They also both in a Rifle regiment of some kind - there are many - due to the black horn buttons on their jackets as opposed to the usual brass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Riley Posted 11 October , 2012 Share Posted 11 October , 2012 (edited) Please explain what you mean by appointment as opposed to rank. From a well known on-line information source in an article under 'Lance Corporal': Until 1961, lance corporal was only an appointment rather than a rank, given to privates who were acting NCOs, and could be taken away by the soldier's commanding officer (whereas a full corporal could only be demoted by court martial). My understanding is also that if a lance corporal moved from one unit to another he generally lost his stripe as he had been 'appointed' within the original unit only However, if he was in the Royal Engineers or the Royal Artillery (and I understand from the article above, the Royal Army Ordnance Corps - note bucket!) the situation is complicated by the existence of ranks and appointmentrs such as second corporal, bombardier and acting bombardier. There have been several threads on this on the Forum. See edit below Do you know his unit? A view of his medal index card might be useful if we knew his name and unit. Are the medals still in the family? Edit: All the above stuff about second corporal typed needlessly as Staffsyeoman is quite right, they are in a rifle or light infantry battalion (latter, I think). I had assumed that the buttons were leather 'football' buttons but if magnified, there is a bugle horn discernible on the third button down. Edited 11 October , 2012 by Ian Riley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 11 October , 2012 Share Posted 11 October , 2012 <snip>Do you know his unit? A view of his medal index card might be useful if we knew his name and unit. Are the medals still in the family? Edit: All the above stuff about second corporal typed needlessly as Staffsyeoman is quite right, they are in a rifle or light infantry battalion (latter, I think). I had assumed that the buttons were leather 'football' buttons but if magnified, there is a bugle horn discernible on the third button down. Definitely rifles buttons, but are you sure these were also worn by light infantry units Ian? That's news to me! There's also a hint of some sort of badge seen edge on at the lower left cuff of the front man. Wound stripe possibly?? No shoulder titles either - dang! As well as the AOC having become Royal, the overseas chevrons also suggest a 1918 date and with only one up that might point to a late-war entry into theatre - though of course a lot of hospital time in Blighty would throw that particular assumption! Lack of LSGC stripes is interesting here too. Both chaps do look young. If Silence Dogood has any leads at all on the mens' names, we might get somewhere. Cheers, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 11 October , 2012 Share Posted 11 October , 2012 There's another topic running on these men here: Please help identifying these cap badges Steve Beeby's identified the pillion passenger as Albert T PARROTT, KRRC then 16/LR (QWRs). Silence Dogood there is asking about despatch riders - presumably on the strength that these two are sitting on a motorcycle. Can anyone clarify what make/model of machine is here (Zenith)? And whether it is likely to have been a military machine? Or simply belongs to one of the soldiers? I'll cross-post in the other topic to connect things up. Cheers, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 11 October , 2012 Share Posted 11 October , 2012 Definitely rifles buttons, but are you sure these were also worn by light infantry units Ian? That's news to me! <snip> Ha! Within minutes of posting, I remember 6/DLI wore blackened buttons! Cheers, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Riley Posted 11 October , 2012 Share Posted 11 October , 2012 Mike, That saves my face, having posted not knowing anything about buttons very much except having seen the rifle buttons of 6th Bn King's (Liverpool Regiment) but then they were a rifle battalion, the Liverpool Rifles. I had found the DLI buttons after a bit of googling. In future, I shall look before I leap! Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 11 October , 2012 Share Posted 11 October , 2012 Mike, That saves my face, having posted not knowing anything about buttons very much except having seen the rifle buttons of 6th Bn King's (Liverpool Regiment) but then they were a rifle battalion, the Liverpool Rifles. I had found the DLI buttons after a bit of googling. In future, I shall look before I leap! Ian And you've saved me a job too, as I was just looking into the Liverpool Rifles myself! 6/DLI were a rifles unit dating back to the 1859 rifle volunteer movement - exactly like the Liverpool rifles. IIRC, the Liverpool Scottish also had an earlier incarnation from that rifles movement, though that did not survive and they were re-founded during the Boer War. Cheers, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Riley Posted 11 October , 2012 Share Posted 11 October , 2012 And you've saved me a job too, as I was just looking into the Liverpool Rifles myself! 6/DLI were a rifles unit dating back to the 1859 rifle volunteer movement - exactly like the Liverpool rifles. IIRC, the Liverpool Scottish also had an earlier incarnation from that rifles movement, though that did not survive and they were re-founded during the Boer War. Cheers, Mark The 5th Battalion of the Liverpool Regiment (in its Territorial existence) was also a rifle battalion (though they did not seem to take it quite so seriously as the 6th KLR), not getting Colours until 1938 and often using the rank of Rifleman during WW1. I think they trace their origin from the 1st Lancashire Rifle Volunteers Correct about the Liverpool Scottish having roots in the 19th Lancashire Rifle Volunteers, 71st LRV and 79th LRV. According to Dennis Reeves, they seemed to spend most of their time arguing over tartans, trews and kilts and the tradition dwindled quite quickly in the 1860s until, as you say, a more solid foundation in 1900. Dennis is the expert on the Liverpool-based RV companies and their Byzantine history. Sorry - apologies for off topic. Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daggers Posted 11 October , 2012 Share Posted 11 October , 2012 Ian I have tried to send you a query via PM, but am told you are not receiving. Is this a brush off, or is your box full? D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silence Dogood Posted 11 October , 2012 Author Share Posted 11 October , 2012 Is there anything you gentlemen can tell me about the Zenith motorcycle? Does it look like military issue? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daggers Posted 11 October , 2012 Share Posted 11 October , 2012 That model with twin cylinders was introduced in 1918. Did the army have their own number plate system then? (I am no expert, but used google for the bike info.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 11 October , 2012 Share Posted 11 October , 2012 Is there anything you gentlemen can tell me about the Zenith motorcycle? Does it look like military issue? Silence, your best bet with this question is to post it in this GWF sub-forum here: http://1914-1918.inv...p?showforum=153 Also make sure you mention Zenith motorcycle in the topic title. The trick to getting a quick answer is to attract in the relevant expert Pals - most of us only skim the new content and only dip into topics with titles suggesting a match to our interests. Cheers, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobL Posted 15 October , 2012 Share Posted 15 October , 2012 I'm not aware of Zenith making motorcycles for Government use in WW1 - the main ones were Douglas and Triumph for dispatch riders, with Phelon & Moore for Royal Flying Corps use, Clyno, Matchless and Royal Enfield for Motor Machine Gun Corps (and others) use and also Sunbeams for despatch riders. This is just a basic list of the more commonly seen ones - it's not rare to see various smaller makes in photos throughout the war, they could have been bought in small batches by the Government, bought for private use or commandeered at the start/during the war from civilians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vulcan works Posted 18 October , 2012 Share Posted 18 October , 2012 I happened on this by accident and hope you don't mind me putting my t' pennethworth in. The chap on the back of the motorcycle has a totally different style of button to the rider. Also a clearly discernable patch-like lump on his upper right jacket sleeve. The lance corporal chevrons appear to be of a different type, the rider's are clearly edged while the passengers are fuzzy and appear to be 'well washed'. He appears to be sat on a folded blanket and also looks younger, also the body language is very distinct - the rider looks at ease and confident, the pillion passenger looks slightly uncomfortable. The rear wheel is being flattened by the weight, which would suggest this is not a regular arrangement. A case of a cadet being given a photo opportunity by an older man perhaps? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 18 October , 2012 Share Posted 18 October , 2012 Vulcan - check out the other threads about these men. See here for example: Please help identifying these cap badges Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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