Afghan_Digger Posted 6 October , 2012 Share Posted 6 October , 2012 I'm looking for help / fresh opinion on the possible identification of 2 Australian casualties from the August 1918 Offensive. On the afternoon of 26 August 1918 the 43rd Battalion advanced Eastwards across the Suzanne-Mericourt Valley on a Brigade axis towards Vaux Wood (2 Bn frontage, 43rd on Left and 44th Bn on right flank). The advance was held up by Artillery firing over open sites and MG fire, suffering casualties the Bn failed to make ground and that evening the 41st Bn pushed through and continued the advance. During this afternoon action the Battalion suffered 7 KIA and approx 20 WIA. Of those 7 KIA, 4 were from C Coy: 2437 CPL Reginald Masters 560 LCPL Reuben Rose 592 PTE George Thatcher 591 PTE George Thomas Numerous witness statements contained in the AWM's Red Cross Missing and Wounded files indicate that all 4 personnel were buried in a mass grave on the edge of K Corpse (Map 62d) to the North of Suzanne. Sometime afterwards it appears that the grave was exhumed as PTEs Thatcher and Thomas now have known graves in Assevillers New British Cemetery. As for Masters and Rose they are listed as Missing. So is it likely that the CWGC wasn't fully privy to all the available info on who was contained in the grave, with two unknown Australian grave markers now standing in Assevillers New British Cemetery? Does anyone know if the CWGC records contain enough detail to narrow down the search for these men who currently have no known resting place? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Woodger Posted 6 October , 2012 Share Posted 6 October , 2012 Hi Thatcher, Thomas and Masters were all given the same burial site reference of 62C G2 c 58 95. This unusually accurate reference places them near Suzanne. Rose was given, I believe by mistake, the Reference 62C C2 c 58 95 which is near Rancourt and this is what was told to the Next of Kin. This error may have been picked up at the Graves Registration Unit but there is no letter telling the NoK. Thatcher and Thomas are buried in Assevillers New Plot 8 row G graves 1 and 2 and there is an Unknown Australian Infantryman next to them in grave 3. It is likely that the Unknown was found at the same time and location as Thomas and Thatcher but although there are a further 13 unknown Australians none of them is near enough to be the fourth man. The case is also complicated because Thomas and Thatcher were not identified at first. Had they been identified there would have been a location Sheet with an E number but in these cases the location sheet showed a C number. When a concentration cemetery was filled there was a review of all the unknowns and if careful consideration allowed an identification then a Location Sheet with a C number was issued. I have come across cases where a body could have been one of two men but it could not be narrowed to one. In these cases the body has been buried as unknown and the men’s names appear on a memorial. I would suggest that the mistake for Rose was corrected and only 3 bodies were found. 2 were identified but no decision could be taken for the third. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Afghan_Digger Posted 6 October , 2012 Author Share Posted 6 October , 2012 Thanks for the extra info Peter The proximity of a third grave to Thomas and Thatcher definitely points towards at least one other body being recovered from the original grave. Given the reporting from so many sources regarding the burial of four bodies I am at a loss considering the method of injury for Masters and Rose (GSW) how the fourth body could be missed? Regarding the grids you referenced were they are very close to those in the unit histories roll of honour, were yours quoted from a CWGC source? Cheers again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Woodger Posted 6 October , 2012 Share Posted 6 October , 2012 Hi I have seen a case where Four burials were made in a single grave and a cross with all four sets of details was raised. On post war Exhumation the cross was still there but only one body could be found. The reference numbers I quote are from the service records of the four men. Three were close to the village of Suzanne and the other close to Rancourt which I believe was not taken until after the date of death. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frev Posted 7 October , 2012 Share Posted 7 October , 2012 Interestingly, another forum member is also looking into the case of these 4 soldiers, and last I spoke to him about them, he had intended on contacting the CWGC to see if they could supply him with the burial returns for Assevillers. I'll alert him to the topic & he may be able to let you know if he's found anything further. Cheers, Frev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew P Posted 7 October , 2012 Share Posted 7 October , 2012 Hi Afghan Digger I just heard back from CWGC in the last week about this case. There were two bodies recovered with Thomas and Thatcher but in the burial returns they were described as an unknown Australia soldier and the fourth as a member of the Royal Garrison Artillery. I would have been of the opinion that it would have been Rose and Masters but no such luck it seems. perhaps the RGA man had been buried at the same spot at some stage. Regards Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Afghan_Digger Posted 7 October , 2012 Author Share Posted 7 October , 2012 Cheers for the assist Frev. Andrew I know that this area was probably past over by English units during the years prior to 1918 in early offensives, as well as the fact the 43rd Bn on the 26th of August was the extreme Northern flank of the 11th Australian Bde with the London Regiment on their left as they advanced. This I suppose goes someway to possibly explain an RFA link. I don't for one minute however doubt that all four were buried in the same shell hole after they had been collected up prior to the 43rd moving into supports on the 27th of August. To many statements from PL SGTs to be made up. It seems probable that either Masters, Rose or both are interred in the adjacent unknown Australian grave to Thatcher and Thomas. Still it seems a pity that they may both never be formally identified. Just out of curiosity do you have the details for the RFA burial plot/casualty? I will make sure next time I visit France to pay my respects to all 3 graves, last time I was there I visited Villers Bret and saw the Missing's names on the Wall. Sorta seems the least I could do considering that my Great Grandfather served with all 4 in C Coy, 43rd Bn and was wounded on the same day. Regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Woodger Posted 7 October , 2012 Share Posted 7 October , 2012 Hi The RGA man is in the grave next to the unknown Australian.See attached Photo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Woodger Posted 7 October , 2012 Share Posted 7 October , 2012 Hi I can never get it right Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteStarLine Posted 8 October , 2012 Share Posted 8 October , 2012 An alternative location is raised in Colliver's official history of the 43rd, [The FortyThird. The Story and Official History of the 43rd Battalion, AIF. Narrative and Compilation by Captain EJ Colliver MC Adjutant and Lieutenant BH Richardson Intelligence Officer. Rigby Limited, Adelaide, 1920]. Free download, by the way. Page 156 details the day: Advance continued at 1:30 am. Objective gained and consolidated. At 8 am advanced further 500 years under heavy shell fire. Outposts placed in postion at 9:30 pm. 7 o.r.k. [OR killed]. All appear on his muster roll. Masters was a section commander as was Rose, whose MM dates from 11 August. Thatcher and Thomas were private soldiers, from the battalion's inception. On page 253 - 255, in the Roll of Honour, Colliver wrote: a map co-ordinate indicates the resting-place of the deceased. At the time of publication, arrangements were in hand for the exhumation of all bodies in scattered and isolated graves and their reinterment in Military Cemeteries: 2437 TCPL Masters RW, Bray, 26/8/18 In the Field - Sheet 62, G.2.a.5.9. 560 LCPL Masters RC, Bray, 26/8/18 In the Field - Sheet 62, G.2.a.5.9. 591 PTE Thomas GJ, Bray, 26/8/18 In the Field - Sheet 62, G.2.a.5.9. 592 PTE Thatcher GAC, Bray, 26/8/18 In the Field - Sheet 62, G.2.a.5.9. We used Colliver to visit Boyd's last known resting place, which also matches his service record, where we also placed a poppy / cross for Pte Will Phillips (33rd Bn), buried in the wrong grave for over 90 years. Suzanne has changed little and we identified a house from my grandfather's photograph and saw shell and bullet impacts still visible in the wall and some 1908 graffiti scratched on the rear of the church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew P Posted 8 October , 2012 Share Posted 8 October , 2012 Afghan Digger I had been hoping the info from CWGC would state that the unknown may have been noted as a unknown Corporal or Lance Corporal but it didn't go into that detail unfortunately. Also the CWGC records state that the map reference was 62d.L.12.a.9.9 and that Thatcher, Thomas and the unknown Australian and RGA were recovered in February 1921. Though the map reference are different, Auimfo (Tim) from the forum told me that the two map references ( from service records & CWGC) actually border each other on different maps so would refer to the same spot. Regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frev Posted 8 October , 2012 Share Posted 8 October , 2012 Just having a closer look at the 'really bad photo' (sun in the wrong place!) I took of the cemetery, with this line of headstones in the foreground - and note that the 5th headstone along (next to the RGA man) is a total 'Unknown' - be interesting to know where he was originally buried? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJG Posted 19 March , 2017 Share Posted 19 March , 2017 Hi. I am a direct descendant of the Rose family on my maternal side and living in Adelaide, South Australia.. I have been researching 560 L/Cpl Reuben Charles Rose MM and wading through the screens and pages of data. It's been frustrating not having definitive details of his place of death and his final resting place. Tumultuous times as they were it's been great to get your feedback on the subject in this Forum. My chief source has been https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/ViewImage.aspx?B=8036906 War records compiled then hand written amendments, date of death errors, burial place overwrites, mis-spelling of his first name, peculiar dates of correspondence to his Mother suggesting the first she knew was a year after the end of conflict yet other earlier correspondence in plenty re his MM awarded posthumously . BUT...wading all through that I think we're just about zeroed in on his final resting place...all I can think of now would be some sort of DNA analysis...which is not likely to happen. Seems there is plenty to suggest the location of his shelling was north of Suzanne. Seems also that he may have been initially relocated and 'buried' at Rancourt ? I also note many dark soil lines and 'blobs' in the soil of surrounding fields by reference to the Google Earth images...trench remains/ different soil compaction??? Darryl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJG Posted 19 March , 2017 Share Posted 19 March , 2017 The RGA man...L/C Reginald Masters 2437...43rd Battalion AIF...https://www.awm.gov.au/images/collection/pdf/RCDIG1052350--1-.pdf States the 4 were buried at the 62nd ?? Casualty Clearing Station. Inconsistencies all over the place in the statements received from the Field..and HQ...but it still seems to confirm they were buried initially in a shell hole then all ended up at Rancour for a while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJG Posted 19 March , 2017 Share Posted 19 March , 2017 Not sure what of make of this record when I Googled Plantation Cemetery Orchard 914: PLANTATION CEMETERY, a French Military Cemetery in the large Orchard 914 metres East of Cappy, where one United Kingdom soldier was buried in February, 1917, and four Australian in August and September, 1918. Surely the 4 weren't also buried temporarily near Cappy after being buried at the Clearing Station...then later buried at Rancourt ..then finally at Assevilliers? maybe it's another 4 Australian soldiers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJG Posted 8 December , 2018 Share Posted 8 December , 2018 So..a year or more down the track from my last forum post and after many hours of specific research, I'm convinced that the Rose/ Rancourt connection is a ' Furphy' brought about by incorrect readings of the letters C and G on the grid reference maps ( C and G were almost identical in style and shape, which is surprising ) and the possible misreading or writing/typing of the numbers 0 and 8 and a and c in the references. All logic says that the four buried in the shell hole at K Copse would have been exhumed and buried together at Assvillers. Rose's AIF Service and Casualty Form is handwritten as Buried at 62C G2 A 58 95....and typed as 62 C C2 A 58 95 but even that's an anomoly as all Red Cross witnesses say ' buried in a shell hole on edge of K copse'. I believe that Rose, Thatcher and Thomas and Masters were actually killed in the middle of the field at or near 58.95 and taken later to the edge of K Copse and the shell hole. The loose definition in all this is the word ' edge' and how the relativities apply between the actual spot in the field where they were killed and the proximity to the shell hole. I guess we'll never really know? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJG Posted 1 January , 2019 Share Posted 1 January , 2019 I cam e across this Red Cross report and it was made by a Sgt Johncock of the 43rd. He was a high school teacher so I would say his word was VERY reliable regarding Masters and the others. I also attach details of Sgt Johncock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJG Posted 1 January , 2019 Share Posted 1 January , 2019 http://ww1sa.gravesecrets.net/jo---jona.html Johncock 3599 Service Record and Photograph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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