impala_ood Posted 4 October , 2012 Share Posted 4 October , 2012 Dear all Please take a look at the following photo http://www.flickr.com/photos/43839372@N04/8049046308/ 1) What's the Insignia just above the Corporal Stripe, upper right sleeve, man sitting far right of the bench? Also seen on the left and right sleeve of the corporal sitting second from left on the same bench. 2) Three of the men are wearing a band around upper right arm - for example the man sat on the ground right hand side. Any suggestions what this is? Does it indicate he is a signaller or could it have other meanings? 3) Most of the men have a square patch visible on both their left and right upper arms/shoulders - what does a square patch in this position represent? 4) The officer's large gloves rather unhelpfully cover up his rank insignia on his sleeves. Is there anything else about his uniform that indicates what rank he is? Regarding points 2 and 3, I know it's a black and white photo but does the shade of grey give an indication what colour those items migh Thank you! Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asanewt Posted 4 October , 2012 Share Posted 4 October , 2012 The mixed cap badges may indicate a training group. Certainly instructors wore badges above rank stripes, The arm bands don't appear to be signallers 'cos they were two colour and wider. Lots of what appear to me to be machine Gun Corps badges including the collars of the officers. Intrigued first by the man standing extreme left middle row. He looks to have two black eyes and a bruisers nose! Looking closer there seems to be above average number of bruisers noses and the odd dark ring under an eye. PTI's perhaps? Brilliant photo', thanks for the view Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
impala_ood Posted 4 October , 2012 Author Share Posted 4 October , 2012 I'd never noticed the mixed cap badges! Just looked again and 2 out of the 25 seem to be other than MGC, and those 2 are both the same. Anyone recognise them? Hello Jules thanks for taking the time to have a look and reply. My Great Grandad is in their somewhere. He joined the 57th Battalion Machine Gun Corp end of '17 and was with them through to Mar '19. Several of the men certainly seem to have a war weary look about them, especially the one extreme left that you pointed out - he does rather draw your eyes doesn't he! You're quite right the arm bands seem to be one colour, as do the square patches on the shoulder. Anyone else have any suggestions what the armbands might signify, or what the small emblem above the corporal or lance corporals stripes could be? Thanks for your help so far. Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asanewt Posted 5 October , 2012 Share Posted 5 October , 2012 Hello again Rich, don't know why it never occurred to me yesterday but they could of course be wearing the MG sleeve badge, looks like it to my bleary eyes. The armband reminds me of elementary school in the early 40's. After inoculation we were issued with red armbands to avoid painful contact with others at playtime etc Ha,Ha You can guess the result, the wags would home in like locusts to thump the sore arm. Fortunately my older brother told me to wear the band on the good arm as a decoy. P.S. A comprehensive post on aembands, brassards etc lists Machine Gun Corps instructors wearing the MG sleeve badge and yellow armband. Irritatingly you men with sleeve badge have no armband and those with armbands don't appear yellow!! J Needs Grumpy/joe Sweeney and friends Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staffsyeoman Posted 6 October , 2012 Share Posted 6 October , 2012 Having stared at this pic for a couple of days a couple of suggestions. The bands might suggest Company Runners. And I think the badge above the Corporal's stripes might actually be the crossed hammer and tongs of an Artificer - MGC units did have some on strength to repair the guns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wainfleet Posted 6 October , 2012 Share Posted 6 October , 2012 The non-MGC cap badges look to me like South Lancs. It may be that they had transferred in and hadn't received MGC cap badges yet. I would agree with SY about the hammer and pincers, but I don't think the bands are for company runners as you'd expect to see those on the cuff, plus, inasmuch as I can tell without an actual example to compare, these look slightly larger. They look as if just out of action and suffering from stress and exhaustion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
impala_ood Posted 6 October , 2012 Author Share Posted 6 October , 2012 Hello chaps thank you for your help and suggestions. I've had a couple of people suggest that the corporal on the right has the hammer and pincer badge of an armourer/artificer above his corporal stripes and I have to say now that I have seen an example kindly provided by a forum member I feel pretty confident that is what it is. Regarding the square shoulder patches, no one seems to be able to see a pattern in there which seems to rule out the inverted D of the 57th Division, so the best bet so far seems to be a solid colour patch identifying one of the brigades within the 57th division. Forum member Arthur has put a lot of work in trying to work out what colour that patch might be and which brigade it might represent. His best guess is that it is a green square representing 171 (2/1 Liverpool) Brigade of the 57th Division. Interestingly, apparently the 172 (2/1st South Lancashire) Brigade had a yellow square as an identifying patch which seems to tie in with a couple of South Lancs soldiers being transferred into the MGC but still waiting for the crossed machine guns and hence the South Lancs cap badges in the photo. Arthur seemed to think the patch in my photo looks to dark to be yellow - what do you think? For the arm band the jury seems to be out. Cyril was a trained signaller which made me wonder if the band could be a signallers band, but several people have pointed out that in my photo the band seems to be one colour where as a signallers band would be blue and white. Regarding the rank/identity of the senior officer there have been some interesting developments please see here for details http://1914-1918.inv...howtopic=185325 It might be worth putting any further comments on that post for the benefit of all. The linked topic also expands upon a possible date for the photo. Thank you for all your help! Everyone has been really helpful and encouraging. Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovetown Posted 7 October , 2012 Share Posted 7 October , 2012 looks to dark to be yellow - what do you think? The film of the period often renders, IIRC, yellow as almost black, so "too dark" would not be an issue. Cheers, GT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asanewt Posted 7 October , 2012 Share Posted 7 October , 2012 Grovetown's gem regarding yellow discolouring to black fits for MG Instructor armband which makes me more confident that the badge above rank chevrons is also MG in laurels sleeve badge. Runner armband was 1 1/2 inches worn on lower forearm apparently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovetown Posted 7 October , 2012 Share Posted 7 October , 2012 Runners dealt with here. http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=185101&hl= Cheers, GT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
impala_ood Posted 8 October , 2012 Author Share Posted 8 October , 2012 Thanks GT had a read. Unless I'm misreading or misinterpreting I think we can rule out runner's as my patches are too wide and in the wrong place?. Possibly company/battalion signaller plain pale blue? Any further comments on this topic to go here please http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=185325&hl= Initially two threads were started to try and answer different queries around the same photo but there is a lot of overlap now so seems sensible to try get the discussion in one place and the linked seems more complete. Regards Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 14 October , 2012 Share Posted 14 October , 2012 Having stared at this pic for a couple of days a couple of suggestions. The bands might suggest Company Runners. And I think the badge above the Corporal's stripes might actually be the crossed hammer and tongs of an Artificer - MGC units did have some on strength to repair the guns. I am confident that you are spot on with the hammer and tongs badges and he is an armourer. I have seen the badge so many times on uniform and it is unmistakable. I believe the arm bands indicate either and instructor or a squad leader/duty student on a machine gun training course. This was and still is common on such courses. The course officer and warrant officer are seated centre, along with probably the assistant instructor (subaltern). Such an organisation has existed for a long time and is still the norm at the infantry school. The odd badges appear to me to be Duke of Cornwall's Light Infantry. South Lancs is another possibility though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
impala_ood Posted 17 October , 2012 Author Share Posted 17 October , 2012 Thanks for your input Frogsmile, I know at least one other person suggested a training group. You might find this link interesting where there has been a lot more discussion about this photo and further comments can be posted there - thank you! http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=185325&hl= Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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