Not a 1917 but a rare Pattern ' 1918 ' Remington bayonet

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Not a 1917 but A rare Pattern 1918 Remington Bayonet.

Well, no not really, it is another very interesting item from my Collection being a very scarce Remington factory error bayonet caused by the production date of 1918 being set for stamping as the ' Pattern ' date, so instead on the bayonet ricasso reading the usual ' 1917 ' for the pattern date, this bayonet shows ' 1918 ' as the Pattern date.

Once the error was discovered, it was immediately corrected, however a small number of Pattern 1917 Remington bayonets were produced with the Pattern ' 1918 ' error date shown on the riscasso.

Attached are photographs of the Remington Pattern ' 1918 ' ricasso markings, the Remington Pattern 1913 ricasso, and the British Inspector's Mark, along with a selection of Remington bayonets from my Collection.

LF

[Khaki]

Thanks LF, I did not know that, I will look a lot harder now,

khaki

[4thGordons]

For some reason I thought the 1918 dated Remingtons were actually US M1917 bayonets incorrectly stamped, rather than P'13 bayonets? (ie produced after the end of the British Contract, during the production run of the US blades. I don't believe Pattern 13 bayones were still being made in 1918 the apparent date of production)

Does your 1918 stamped bayonet have British inspection / acceptance stamps?

I have seen several of these bayonets (although yet to purchase one) and I am fairly certain the ones I saw did not.

So I guess what I am saying is I would have thought of these as US "M1918" bayonets rather British "Pattern 18" as per your title.

Chris

[Lancashire Fusilier]

For some reason I thought the 1918 dated Remingtons were actually US M1917 bayonets incorrectly stamped, rather than P'13 bayonets?

Chris

Chris,

Many thanks for the follow up, and yes, you are probably correct. I have been updating the inventory for my Collection, and came to a box of P14 bayonets, and did not even recall the 1918 error bayonet, and having found it, put together a post regarding it.

Skennerton refers to these ' 1918 ' bayonets on page 154 of his book " The U.S. Enfield ", and after your post and referring to the book, it should be 1917, so I will edit the thread.

Hope you found the bayonet interesting.

Regards,

LF

[4thGordons]

Cor-- I wish I could find a box of P'13 bayonets i'd forgotten about!

I wonder how many of these were made - I see them every so often but never in decent shape/affordable... I do check regularly for them though. Nice to see such a good example.

Chris

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Here is another P13 bayonet, the much scarcer Winchester Pattern 1913 dated September 1916 produced for the British Army.

Only some 225,000 Winchester Pattern 1913 bayonets were produced, as compared with 1,243,000 Remington Pattern 1913 bayonets produced.

LF

[shippingsteel]

For some reason I thought the 1918 dated Remingtons were actually US M1917 bayonets incorrectly stamped, rather than P'13 bayonets?

Chris is spot on .... the 1918 date bayonets are the US Model 1917 that were incorrectly marked, and they are relatively uncommon as opposed to being rare.

It is surprising how many of these do turn up. In the photo of the 3 bayonets, the bottom two should have their scabbards swapped to actually be more correct.

Cheers, S>S

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Chris is spot on .... the 1918 date bayonets are the US Model 1917 that were incorrectly marked, and they are relatively uncommon as opposed to being rare.

It is surprising how many of these do turn up. In the photo of the 3 bayonets, the bottom two should have their scabbards swapped to actually be more correct.

Cheers, S>S

shippingsteel,

Well spotted, getting them ready for the photographs, I put them in the wrong scabbards.

I did this deliberately, so as to see if someone would spot it

Regards,

LF

[shippingsteel]

I did this deliberately, so as to see if someone would spot it

Hmmm, well .... ( or as they say in my country - "Yeah, Right.!" )

Anyway here is my contribution to the thread. A Winchester and a Remington P1913 example both in their original sandblasted finish (of 1916).

Cheers, S>S

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Hmmm, well .... ( or as they say in my country - "Yeah, Right.!" )

Anyway here is my contribution to the thread. A Winchester and a Remington P1913 example both in their original sandblasted finish.

Cheers, S>S

2 excellent examples of P13s, their condition looks great.

thanks for posting them.

Regards,

LF

[findabetterole]

The stamp of '1918' was actually a manufacturing mistake... soon picked up on and rectified. However, it is not actually know as to how many were let slip through the net before the Pattern 1917 stamping continued. These are quite rare beasts, and well saught after. So, well done 'Lancashire Fusilier' on aquiring one.

Seph

[dundeesown]

Hi folks

Looking for a bit of advice from the Bayonet experts on the Forum,a lad in my work has one of the 1918 Remingtons and has asked me ( stop laughing ) if I can tell him anything about it ( the quick answer to that is no ).I don`t have a clue about Bayonets and all this pattern 1913,P14 and so on has me lost,so can any of the Forum chums help me out ?

Is 1918 just the year it was made ? and is that a thistle on the blade ? HELP he is looking for £100 for this, should I go for it ? any help very much appreciated.

Thanks for any help Gary

Edit--the scabbard looks to have a very small stamp--EJB or EJD.

[4thGordons]

Not a thistle - a "busting bomb" or grenade. US Mark (overstamped with a partial eagle head/26 inspection stamp)

This is a US M1917 Bayonet - one of the examples incorrectly stamped 1918 for a short time when the year changed. This adds slightly to its value.

The M1917 bayonet is identical (apart from the markings) to the British Pattern 1913 bayonet.

These bayonets fit the Pattern 14 rifle (British), the US Rifle, .30cal Model 1917 and also "trench" shotguns.

Quite a lot of these came into the UK in 1940 with British purchased and Lend-Lease acquired M1917 rifles which saw extensive issue with the Home Guard, that might be the source of the frog on this one which looks like it is a "1939 Pattern" piece (a wartime emergency leather version of '37 pattern web which was issued to Home Guard and some Free French etc units).

100 pounds sounds like a lot to me but I am not sure on the UK market prices

The scabbard and frog are quite nice so perhaps it is not too high.

Chris

[shippingsteel]

The M1917 bayonet is identical (apart from the markings) to the British Pattern 1913 bayonet.

Except for the clearance hole which was not included on the P1913 bayonet and which usually is on the M1917's for the Americans. This example is missing one.!

Which is very interesting as by that late a date (1918) they all should have been receiving the hole in the pommel. A very few were not drilled early on in production.

It is suspected that the ones without the holes were made up from leftover parts from the previous P1913 production. Making this particular bayonet a later aberration.

I would be interested in a closeup of the pommel to check it more closely. Perhaps it was made from an earlier pommel, either way it's unusual to see and adds value.

Cheers, S>S

[dundeesown]

A big thank you to S/S and Chris,the pommel has a hole in it I will see if I can get another picture of it,so it may not be WW1 ?

thanks again.

Gary.

[shippingsteel]

Oh sorry, my mistake.! I couldn't see the hole in the photo - it must be full of gunk.? Never mind ... if it has the hole than that is perfectly normal for the M1917 (made in 1918)

Cheers, S>S

[dundeesown]

Thanks for all your help S>S.

Gary

[sawdoc34]

Seasons greetings chaps,

does anyone have any info on P13s with a false edge?

(S/S, getting a few bayonets out to clean later, so will try the P1879 on the SMLE for you)

Cheers,

Aleck

[shippingsteel]

Seasons greetings chaps, does anyone have any info on P13s with a false edge?

And likewise a big hello to you too Aleck, and all the best for the New Year. I'm looking forward to seeing that photo - should be interesting.

The P1913's with false edge have most likely seen Indian service (circa WW2) They used the bayonet and also liked applying false edges.

Cheers, S>S

[sawdoc34]

S/S,

I, like yourself thought of Indian service but the bayonet in question is a P13 with cancelled inspectors marks & restamped with US markings, can not see any Indian gov marks but will take a better look when it arrives

May your best of 2012 be the worst of 2013,

Aleck

[shippingsteel]

Thanks Aleck. Yes it was one of the last production P1913's (dated August 1917) that was taken into US service for the use on the M1917 rifles.

And I would say definitely Indian usage later on, with 1) False edge, 2) DP (Drill Purpose) stamped on guard, and 3) a very dark Refurbishment.

Cheers, S>S

[sawdoc34]

S/S,

Even better, didnt want to add US bayonets to the collection right now (apart from the 1918), so it fits right in with the Indian part, result

Be even nicer if can find an IG mark somewhere on it

Cheers,

Aleck

[shippingsteel]

Be even nicer if can find an IG mark somewhere on it ...

I don't think you will ... that Indian re-work looks 'late' (ie. even post WW2) going by the shape of the false edge (ie. No.5 era shape-wise)

But that DP stamp is about as Indian as you can get, as far as markings go. The Indian surplus rifles are usually covered in that marking.

Cheers, S>S

[sawdoc34]

S/S,

Noticed that Indians like to stamp DP all over their P07 bayonets, have several of the shorter versions with same DP markings.

Never see that many UK Drill Purpose marked bayonets.

Did the Indian army keep using the SMLE quite a while after the UK turned to the L1A1?

Cheers,

Aleck

[4thGordons]

Did the Indian army keep using the SMLE quite a while after the UK turned to the L1A1?

The No1 Mk3* and No4 MkI (1*) are still in service in large numbers with Indian forces today. Usually paramilitary police, and village defence/local militia forces these days.

If you look at some of the footage of the terrorist attacks on Mumbai you will see fire being returned with SMLEs/No4s

SMLEs were produced solidy up until 1963/4

Between 1964-1968 they manufactured the 7.62mm 2A and 2A1 rifles, which were No1Mk3* rifles made in 7.62mm NATO calibre

The last run of manufacture of the No1Mk3* in .303", probably using up parts, was in 1988/9, there was previously a limited production run in the early 1970s.

Chris