Cap Badge & Photograph ID - Help Please

[Peter Zieminski]

Can anyone assist with identifying the cap badge worn by the Officer, or indeed the Officer, in this photograph. It is taken from a stained glass panel in a Church in Sotteville and there is a project underway to try to identify those photographs that make up the stained glass window. Many thanks.

[Old Owl]

Hi Peter,

He could be Royal Berkshire Regt or K.R.R.C., I think that both these regiments wore this type of badge for officers, also some Gurkha Regiments.

Robert

P.S. His face does look familiar but I cannot place him.

[Peter Zieminski]

Thank you for the suggestions Robert - I've tried to increase the size of the image to get a better view but it just becomes a blur of pixels - frustratingly there is damage to the original image in the area of the Collar Dogs so another possible means of identification is obscured.

[FROGSMILE]

The 'roll of honour' within the church (assuming the stained glass shows the 'fallen') should give you a list of names as a minimum and often the units too. It should then be possible to match with the images.

[Peter Zieminski]

Sadly the Roll of Honour at the Church is incomplete and the names for a number of the images are unknown - hence the Project to identify them.

[IPT]

What's the name of the church?

There may be a mention in the man's family details.

[Peter Zieminski]

It's Notre Dame

Here is the website

http://tableaudhonneur.free.fr/sotteville/Sotteville.htm

If you Google it you can get the pages translated which set out the details of the Project to name the unknowns - What I find really interesting is that he appears to be the only British Officer remembered here - and I wonder why?

[Old Owl]

Hi Peter,

He must have had a strong connection with Paris/Notre Dame, the most obvious being that his mother was possibly French? As I said previously he does look particularly familiar, but this may just be my imagination!! When I have a little more time I will see if I can identify him for you--but please do not hold your breath as it is a matter of a lot of luck and possibly a little knowledge for this to happen.

Have you actually spoken to those who started this project? It seems to me that the local newspapers around the time that the stained glass was installed would be a good bet for identifying these men, or does Notre Dame have something in its records which would provide this information? I cannot imagine that they would allow such glass memorials to be installed without knowing all the details--or do they know who manufactured and installed the glass? as they may have records of the individual men from when the work was commissioned.

This is certainly quite a challenge if no such record exists, but I am quite sure that there will be lots of pointers out there if you can just find them!!

Good Luck!

Robert

[Peter Zieminski]

Thanks Robert - A friend of mine who recently visited the Church was subsequently contacted by a member of the Project Team appealing for help in identifying the Officer - Sadlly there doesn't appear to be any surviving record at the Church - they thought if they can identify the Regiment it may give a clue as to perhaps a particular local action or battle that would then lead to the possibility of identifying who, and possibly why, he has been included in the commemoration.

[Guest]

I take it these are the soldiers identified, and there are 17 still to identify?

Here is a google translation of the information, just in case anyone here can get any clues?

Click

Crypt dedicated to soldiers who died during the First World War

List of 75 soldiers whose names are engraved on plaques

(Supplemented by the information extracted from the file of the Dead for France)

ANQUETIL Ernest Victor was born April 3, 1871 in Isneauville (76) Died for France to Verdun December 29, 1916, north of Fort Douaumont 22nd RIT Death Certificate transcribed Bois-Guillaume (76) 30.08.1917.

Esnest ANQUETIL appears on the windows. He was the grandfather of champion cyclist Norman Jacques Anquetil.

AUBRY Raoul Jules Ferdinand born November 12, 1894 Bolbec (76) Died for France to Verdun Trenches April 16, 1916 Corporal 36th RI Death Certificate transcribed the Bolbec 24/07/1916 (76)

René Antoine Joseph BERGER born 18 September 1894 in Amiens, France Died for Berry-au-Bac April 29, 1917 [Neuville (Marne)] 402nd RI A declaratory judgment of death was pronounced on 03.12.1921 by the Tribunal Amiens and transcribed records Vital March 26, 1921

Lucien Jules André BERTRAND born 13 September 1897 in Rouen (76) Died for France to Dommard June 2, 1918 [Hangard sector-en-Santerre (80)] at the 94th Sergeant IR? Death transcribes 08/19/1918 in Mont-St-Aignan (76)

BEYNEY-Dubreuil Marie Joseph Gabriel born November 20, 1889 in Granville (50) Died for France to Belloy-en-Santerre 16/10/1916 Corporal 33rd RIC Death Certificate transcribed on 09/06/1917 at Rouen (76)

BIMONT January Maxims Julien born 16 October 1878 in Rouen [Martigny (76)]; Died for France to Vouziers (08) October 15, 1915 Soldier in the 236th RI A declaratory judgment of death has been made by the Tribunal on 10.22.1920 Dieppe and transcribed the register on 20/01/1921 Vital Arques-la-Bataille (76)

BOUQUET René Edmond Eugène born April 14, 1894 at Argueil (76) Died for France to Vézaponin (02) April 28, 1918 2nd gunner for 109th (or 100?) RAL Death Certificate transcribed Argueil April 7, 1919

Bure Jules Victorian born August 21, 1895 at Sotteville-lès-Rouen (76) Died for France September 20, 1916 at Bouchavesne (80) Soldier 2nd Class RI Death 31st transcribed Sotteville-lès-Rouen on 01/10/1917

BUTELET Marcel Joseph Frédéric born September 12, 1894 in Rouen, France Died for the trenches Calonne (Éparges, Meuse), June 23, 1915 Corporal in the 128th RI Death Certificate transcribed Rouen May 10, 1917

CANDE Paul? 18 ..? Petit-Quevilly - Sotteville-lès-Rouen 1917 Data not found

CAPELLE Georges Alphonse Louis born March 27, 1895 at Blosseville (76) Died for France March 4, 1916 at the 46th RI Vauquois Soldier Death transcribes 27/06/1916 Sotteville-lès-Rouen

CAULLE Joseph born May 3, 1885 at Bosc-le-Hard (76) Died for France to Arras [souchez (62)] on 1 October 1915 to 41st RIC Sergeant Major A declaratory judgment of death was released April 4, 1918 by the Court of Dieppe and transcribed April 23, 1918 in St-Victor-Abbey (76)

CHANTEPIE Pierre Auguste Lucien Joseph, born November 23, 1888 in Bourgneuf-la-Forêt (53) Died for France March 25, 1918 at Manicamp (02) 76th Sergeant IR A declaratory judgment of death was pronounced on 15.01.1921 by the Rouen Court and transcribed the 07/02/1921 in Mont-St-Aignan (76)

CHEVALLIER Raoul Marcel born September 2, 1895 in Lisieux (14) Died for France to Roucy (02) May 5, 1916 Corporal in the 239th RI Death Certificate transcribed Rouen 07/06/1917

Chomont Marcel Eugène Augustin born September 11, 1895 in Rouen (76) Death to France on 18 February 1919 in Rouen second driver Gunner 15th RAC

CLAUDEL René Charles Emmanuel was born July 18, 1888 in Grand-Quevilly (76) Died for France October 19, 1916 in Rouen Corporal 119th quartermaster in RI

Click to enlarge Click on image to enlarge

Rene Claudel appears on the windows. Click to enlarge.

Military Medal and the Croix de Guerre with quote: "On the front from the start, showed in all circumstances remarkable courage and dedication. Wounded August 29, 1914, joined his regiment barely healed. During the fighting in June 1915, served for 6 consecutive days under a constant bombardment, functions as a liaison and is noted for his absolute contempt for danger. A critically injured June 25, resulting in a group of men to assault. Impotence functional left hand. "

Rene Claudel was poured into ancillary service and was assigned to guard prisoners of war. Unfortunately, he contracted a disease in the service to which the most devoted care received in the paternal home, could not save. He died October 19, 1916. Before the war, he worked as the mother to the direction of the "House of Bees".

COLLET Jules Alphonse Ernest born November 15, 1895 in Rouen [Cormeilles (27)]; Died for France at Verdun [at Mort Homme (Meuse)] October 9, 1916 Soldier 2nd Class at 412 RI Death Certificate transcribed the 5.30 .1918 in Rouen

Édouard André DELAFOSSE 1882 Rouen; Died for France in Reims [Cernay-the-Hermanville (Meuse)] October 28, 1914 Sergeant 119th RI A declaratory judgment of death was pronounced on 06.27.1919 by the Tribunal of the Seine and transcribed the 18/07/1919 in Paris 8th

Georges Adolphe Marie DELORME born 10 August 1894 in Rouen, France Died for August 22, 1914 at Châtelet (Belgium), 39th RI disappeared a declaratory judgment of death was pronounced on 10.14.1920 by the Court Yvetot and transcribed the 25/10/1920 Yvetot

Maurice Georges DELORME born 16 October 1887 in Rouen, France Died for August 21, 1918 in Pontoise (Oise) Dental Officer [2nd Class 4th Regiment of Zouaves Walk depending on the file of the Dead for France]

DESPREZ Albert Léon Jules born July 16, 1894 at Yvetot; Died for France au Bois Brulé (west Apremont Marne), 22 June 1916 Corporal 154th RI Death transcribes 11/23/1916 Sotteville-lès-Rouen

Eugène François Duboc born 16 April 1892 in Rouen [blainville-Crevon (76)]; Died for France in Sailly [north of Nancourt (80)] October 11, 1916 Soldier 2nd Class 154th RI Resident at Boisguillaume

DUBOC Marcel Emile Raymond was born in 1891 [7 December 1892] at Bois-Guillaume, France Death for November 20, 1914 in Bar-le-Duc (Meuse) Soldier 1st Class 154th RI Resident at Boisguillaume

DUBOC Maurice Eugène Alexandre born October 6, 1891 in Bois-Guillaume (76) Death to France to Chambery Hospital February 21, 1915 Soldier 1st Class 154th RI

Henri Dumont 1881 - 1917 Corporal at 403 RI No corresponding record in the file of the Dead for France

Gaston Maurice EDE born 12 April 1886 in Rouen Died for France at Verdun [Vaux (Meuse)] April 11, 1916 274th and 74th RI RI transcribed death March 27, 1917 in St-Ouen (Seine)

GONTIER Gaston Maurice Gustave born March 13, 1894 at Déville-lès-Rouen Died for France October 18, 1918 in the battle of Vivaise (02) Corporal Fourier RI from the 81st to the 128th RI transcribed Death 8 February 1920 in Rouen

Julien Grenier 1896 - 1916 No gunner sheet can correspond in the file of the Dead for France (non communicable form online)

GRIBOUVAL André Jean was born April 18, 1893 in St-Martin-le-Gaillard (76) Died for France May 28, 1918 at Boeschepe (North) 2nd gunner for the 107th RAL transcribed Death October 16, 1920 in St-Aubin- the-Cauf (76)

Guérillon Adrien Charles Eugene born 10 September 1897 in Paris 18e; Died for France July 17, 1918 in Wood Marshals, rating 200 (Aisne) 18th BCP came 3rd Group Cycling Death transcribed May 2, 1919 in Beaumont-sur-Oise (Seine-et-Oise)

HELLOT John Henry born April 16, 1896 in La Flèche (Sarthe) Died for France September 20, 1915 in Neuville-St-Vaast (Pas-de-Calais) Sergeant came on the 39th of the 36th RI RI Death transcribed June 18, 1917 Rouen

Click on image to enlarge

Herier / Herrier Eugène Edouard born February 14, 1879 in Petit-Quevilly; Died for France Longueval CUINCHY (Somme) September 26, 1914 22nd RIT A declaratory judgment of death was released April 16, 1917 by the Court of Rouen and transcribed April 27, 1917 in Petit-Quevilly (76).

Click on image to enlarge

JOUAULT Charles Maurice Jules born July 19, 1893 Rouen Died for France in Ypres (Belgium) February 10, 1915 Corporal 10th Engineer Regiment, Company 20/2 transcribed Death April 24, 1915 in Rouen

Lancesseur Robert Pierre Jules born March 12, 1891 Rouen Died for France at Verdun [Fleury at Douaumont (Meuse)] February 27, 1916 Doctor auxiliary 8th came the 74th RI RI Death transcribed Rouen January 27, 1918.

Click on image to enlarge

Lucien Eugene LANGLOIS born 18 December 1881 in Brionne (27) Died for France in Belval [Fleury-la-Rivière (Marne)] July 26, 1918 82nd RI A declaratory judgment of death was released January 6, 1922 by Tribunal of the Seine and transcribed March 14, 1922 in Nanterre (Seine).

LARCHER George born in 1898 in La-Feuillie; Died for France to Rouen 1923 No card in the file of the Dead for France

LEBLOND Alfred Auguste Léon Marie born 24 October 1887 in Rouen, France Died for September 11, 1914 in Orléans, at the age of 27 years the 129th RI

Albert Fernand LEFEVRE born 15 September 1890 in Routot (27) Died for France October 11, 1914 in Old Chapel (62) from injuries of war. Brigadier 16th Dragoon Regiment A declaratory judgment of death was delivered on 11 March 1921 by the court of the Seine and transcribed 13 May 1921 at the town hall of Asnières.

André Marie Adrien LEMAIRE born September 11, 1891 in Havre Died for France, killed in action October 25, 1918 in St-Quentin-le-Petit (08). Sergeant in the 116th RI, 3rd Company His death certificate was transcribed in Havre Aug. 22, 1919.

Bulletin religious of the Archdiocese of Rouen "LEMAIRE, Le Havre, a sergeant in the 116th Infantry, struck by a bullet in the chest on October 25, after the entire campaign without a single injury, the news of his death - repetition of pain - came to the Abbe LEMAIRE [sotteville-lès-Rouen] the day of the armistice. well our cordial sympathy to our dear colleague. "

Henri Maurice LEROUX born November 4, 1887 in Petit-Quevilly; + to Pontavert (Aisne) April 12, 1917 113th RI

Georges Levasseur born in 1878? Sotteville-lès-Rouen Died for France in Paris 1915 Head of Division

LOISEL Daniel born May 26, 1881 in Paris, France Died for the Ville-sur-peat (Marne) September 25, 1915 403rd RI A declaratory judgment of death was released March 18, 1921 by the Court of Rouen and transcribed the April 8, 1921 in Rouen.

Emile Edouard Loisel "Georges" born November 16, 1883 in Dieppe. Sergeant in the 23rd Division Military Nurses. Died for France in captivity, November 29, 1918 at Langensalza province of Saxony, near Erfurt, Germany. Died of disease. A declaratory judgment of death was delivered on 17 December 1919 by the Court of Rouen and transcribed December 31, same place. 23rd SIM

Sergeant Ambulance 12/20?

No corresponding record in the file of the Dead for France (non communicable line).

Click to enlarge and another image. Photo provided by Dr. Claude Loisel, her little son.

Bulletin religious of the Archdiocese of Rouen, No. 3 of 18 January 1919, pages 64 & 65: "We learn with sorrow the death of Mr. George LOISEL, Sergeant ambulance attendant. Captured May 25, 1918, he was interned at Camp Langensalza nicknamed by the soldiers 'death camp'. influenza there was terrible havoc, George LOISEL is offered as a volunteer for the sick. Reached himself, he died in a few days but not without had the consolation of receiving the sacraments from the hands of the chaplain of the camp. alumnus Brothers, father of four children, George M. Loisel was the son of Mr. Loisel, Boulevard Gambetta, Section President of the Commercial Court . He was like his father a man of faith very strong and very active whose loss will be keenly felt by our works and the Catholic parish of Saint-Vivien. "

RENT Charles René Georges born September 22, 1894 in Rouen, France Died for March 26, 1915 at Bois des Eparges (Meuse) to Corporal 132nd RI

Click on image to enlarge and more information

RENT Henri Paul was born June 19, 1896 in Tours (37) Died for France March 3, 1916 at Forest Parroy (Meurthe-et-Moselle) Maréchal des Logis 25th Dragoon Regiment Death transcribed Rouen January 3, 1917 .

Click on image to enlarge and more information

MARGERIE Julien Jacques Marie born March 11, 1890 Sotteville-lès-Rouen Died for France at the Hospital of Rouen in 1918 [18 June 1917] 243rd Artillery Regiment, 25th Battery

MARIE Louis Lucien Gabriel born 16 April 1883 in Rouen [Routot (Eure)] Died for France at Verdun [Douaumont (Meuse)] April 5, 1916 2nd gunner for the 43rd Artillery Regiment, 4th Battery Death transcribed Rouen January 15, 1917

MARTIN Gabriel Auguste Désiré was born in Paris, 7th, May 1, 1897 Died for France July 3, 1917 at Guyencourt (Aisne), ambulance 1/96 RI 31st, 10th Company - Military Medal Croix de Guerre & Death transcribed Rouen on July 1, 1918

MASSÉ Jules Marie Joseph was born 30 May 1894 in Petit-Quevilly; Died for France December 29, 1915 at Souchez (Pas-de-Calais) 39th RI

Desire MÉTAIS Georges Hippolyte born April 3, 1882 at Touffreville (Eure) Died for France September 24, 1914 at Loivre (Marne) 224th RI A declaratory judgment of death was delivered on 18 September 1920 by the Court of Bernay and transcribed the October 13, 1920 at Serquigny (Eure)

Michel MURPHY 1894 - 1918 No card in the file of the Dead for France

Robert Joseph Léon Louis NEEL born 23 October 1894 in Maromme (76) Died for France February 16, 1917 at Berry-au-Bac (Aisne), Farm Cholera 131st RI A declaratory judgment of death was released on December 21 1921 by the Court of Rouen and transcribed January 18, 1922 in Rouen.

ORANGE Joseph Marie Robert was born on 5 November 1891 in Notre-Dame-de-Bondeville (76) Died for France August 24, 1914 at Longuyon (Meurthe-et-Moselle) 31st RI A declaratory judgment of death was made on 5 May 1920 by the Court of Rouen and transcribed 21 May 1920 in Notre-Dame-de-Bondeville.

Paul Joseph Victor PANNIER born November 14, 1889 in Rouen Died for France to Sapigneul (Marne) November 4, 1914 24th RI A declaratory judgment of death was released February 11, 1918 by the Court of Rouen and transcribed 1st March 1918 Sotteville-lès-Rouen.

PATRY Georges Henri Honoré born April 3, 1883 in Isneauville [Criquetot-le-Mauconduit (76)]; Died for France at Berry-au-Bac January 21, 1915 28th RI transcribed Death March 2, 1916 at Quincampoix (76)

Photo taken from his grave at Berry-au-Bac in the national cemetery by Vincent Lecalvez (thanks).

PAUGAM François Marie was born February 20, 1890 Morlaix (Finistère) Died for France disease in captivity, October 25, 1918 in Bautzen (Germany). Corporal 5th RI. Death transcribed December 20, 1920 at Sotteville-lès-Rouen.

PELLEVILLAIN Joseph Paul born 31 October 1883 in Rouen, France Died for October 7, 1915 in La Croix-en-Champagne (Marne) Sergeant Major at 319th RI, 23rd Company Death transcribed Rouen 11 April 1916

PÉRIER Louis Armand Gustave born July 12, 1890 in Rouen, France Died for at Craonne (Aisne) April 17, 1917 233rd RI, came the 74th RI Death transcribed December 29, 1917 in Bois-Guillaume

Christian PESAS 1884? - 1921 No card in the file of the Dead for France

POSTEL Charles Marie born March 14, 1886 Sotteville-lès-Rouen, France Died for Neuville-St-Vaast [at the Hospital de Haute-Avesnes (Pas-de-Calais)] May 12, 1915 224th IR, 24th Company A declaratory judgment of death was delivered on 14 September 1928 by the Court of Rouen and transcribed September 28, 1928 in Rouen.

Leon POTEL 1867 Rouen - Rouen 1917 No card in the file of the Dead for France

REVERT Émile Sirius born 10 January 1886 in Tweed (76) Died for France April 27, 1915 at Brielen (Belgium) Soldier 1st class to the 4th Battalion of Colonial Morocco A declaratory judgment of death was released March 29, 1921 by the Court of Rouen and transcribed April 8, 1921 in Rouen.

ROUCHON Auguste Eugène born February 22, 1888 in Paris, 6th; Died for France, who died in Wed, February 11th, 1918 Quarter master mechanic on the submarine "Diane" Last residence: Cherbourg. A declaratory judgment of death was delivered on 14 May 1919 by the Court of Brest and transcribed May 20, 1919 in Brest.

ROULAND Albert Auguste François Marie was born January 19, 1891 at Arques-la-Battles (76) Died for France? disappeared Vaux Douaumont (Meuse)? April 4, 1916 Lieutenant 74th RI.

A declaratory judgment of death was rendered on 21 July 1920 by the Court of Rouen and transcribed July 28, 1920 at Sotteville-lès-Rouen.

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Seminarian. Mentioned in dispatches: "calm and brave officer, accompanied with a machine gun section, a wave of infantry attack. A maintained its position in two men in shell holes, homeless for twelve hours, under a most violent bombardment. '

ROULAND Georges Louis Felix was born July 23, 1892 at Arques-la-Bataille (76) Died for France at Verdun [Vaux Douaumont (Meuse)] April 5, 1916 Corporal 74th RI.

Death transcribed November 9, 1916 in Sotteville-lès-Rouen.

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STALIN Dominique Alphonse Léon born February 16, 1894 in Dieppe [Offranville (76)]; Died for France Neuville-St-Vaast (Pas-de-Calais) June 17, 1915 Corporal 146th RI Death transcribed at September 14, 1915 Offranville.

Maurice René Victor THERY born 31 December 1891 in Rouen, France Died for Fort Vaux-Chapître Souville, July 13, 1916 Sergeant 169th RI Death transcribed Rouen 28 August 1917.

Emile Henry THIERRY born 7 October 1883 in Rouen [Mont-St-Aignan (76)]; Died for France to Chevreux (Aisne) April 16, 1917 8th RI A declaratory judgment of death was delivered on 6 May 1921 by the Rouen Court and transcribed 25 May 1921 in Rouen.

THOMIRE Marcel Pierre Antoine Marie born 21 November 1898 in St-Jacques-de-Darnétal (76) Died for France, disappeared Wed July 11th, 1918 at the loss of steam Bacchus Seaman 3rd class electrician wireless operator A declaratory judgment death was issued on 5 March 1919 by the Court of Marseille and transcribed May 8, 1919 in Marseille.

Charles THORIN Calixte born October 15, 1894 in Mont-St-Aignan [Notre-Dame-de-Bondeville (76)]; Died for France to Ambulance 2/22, at Valmy (Marne), September 26, 1915 146th RI Death transcribed November 24, 1915 in Mont-St-Aignan.

THORIN Clement born in 1892 in Aubigny, Died for France in 1915 in Kassel No corresponding record in the file of the Dead for France (non-communicable)

Tolmer Albert Edward born August 4, 1893 in Petit-Quevilly (76) Died for France in the evacuation hospital No. 13 Marcelcave (Somme), July 22, 1916 Corporal RIC 21st, transcribe the 9th Company Death April 25, 1917 in Petit-Quevilly.

Tolmer George born in 1891 in Petit-Quevilly; Died for France in 1915 Louhans No corresponding record in the file of the Dead for France (non-communicable)

Toullet Christian Eugène born 21 June 1890 in Rouen Died for France October 7, 1914 at Ablain St-Nazaire (Pas-de-Calais) at the age of 24 years Maréchal des Logis 6th Dragoon Regiment

Turquety Constant Etienne born December 26, 1878 at Coulouvray (Manche) Died for France September 26, 1918 in St-Hilaire-St Souplet (Marne) 416th IR, 10th Company A declaratory judgment of death has been made by December 31, 1919 the Court of Rouen and transcribed January 23, 1920 in Sotteville-lès-Rouen.

Mike

[Guest]

Could it have been a Liason officer, or interpreter?

It sort of looks like a young Lionel Dunsterville, and he was there in 1914 according to his Diaries then again, maybe not?

Mike

[Guest]

Have played with the image of the cap badge, and am not sure if this is just a trick of the light, or if there actually is a cross?

Mike

[Old Owl]

Have played with the image of the cap badge, and am not sure if this is just a trick of the light, or if there actually is a cross?

Mike

Hi Mike,

The KRRC badge is a Maltese Cross which would fit with this image, ie the miniature badge on the beehive or knot base.

Robert

[FROGSMILE]

The KRRC wore a silver bugle on their scarlet cord boss (known in the regiment as 'the cherry'), but one of the battalions of the London Regiment, I think the 16th (Queen's Westminster Rifles) did wear a black maltese cross on their, similar scarlet cord boss.

[Peter Zieminski]

Dear All

The Project Team at the Church has sent me an image (the second one here) which they have had enhanced - I now think it's a Rifle Regiment of one sort or another - The first sepia image for comparison is of an Officer from the 6th Rifle Btn Kings Liverpool Regiment. The third image for comparison is of an Officer of the 8th Btn KRRC. The 8th KRRC Officer doesn't have any Collar Dogs and the 6th Rifle Btn Kings Liverpool Regiment Officer's Collar Dogs are clearly visible. I have tried to compare the 6th with the unknown but it's less than clear. The last image of the unknown Officer's Collar Dogs is the best possible one taken from the enhanced photo - What do you all think?

[FROGSMILE]

Dear All

The Project Team at the Church has sent me an image (the second one here) which they have had enhanced - I now think it's a Rifle Regiment of one sort or another - The first sepia image for comparison is of an Officer from the 6th Rifle Btn Kings Liverpool Regiment. The third image for comparison is of an Officer of the 8th Btn KRRC. The 8th KRRC Officer doesn't have any Collar Dogs and the 6th Rifle Btn Kings Liverpool Regiment Officer's Collar Dogs are clearly visible. I have tried to compare the 6th with the unknown but it's less than clear. The last image of the unknown Officer's Collar Dogs is the best possible one taken from the enhanced photo - What do you all think?

It does look to me as if you have found the solution Peter. I enclose an image of the collar badge and it seems very like that in the image taken from your stained window.

Afternote: I am unable to load the file even though it is 98kb.

[Peter Zieminski]

Thanks Frogsmile - in the absence of your image can you confirm you think I'm on the right track with the 6th Kings Liverpool? If so my next step will be to contact the Regimental Museum as it may just be that they have photographs of Officers from which I may be able to find a match or perhaps identify a link between the Regiment and the location - being an Officer I would then expect that the Battalion War Diary would mention by name Officers killed-in-action.

The thing that surprises me is that having been commemorated in the way he has his Regiment or family didn't have some involvement which would have led to a positive identification.

This continues to be an interesting exercise!

[MBrockway]

The cap badge is definitely the "bee hive" cord boss with strung bugle.

This was used by officers of the KRRC, but also a number of rifles battalions of the territorial force, including 6/KLR.

The KRRC did not wear collar dogs, apart from 20/KRRC, who as a pioneer battalion wore standard pioneer collar dogs. This chap is thus definitely not KRRC.

The collar dog has the letter "T" underneath, so this officer is from a territorial force battalion.

However, to my eyes the lower part of the collar dog does not seem to be the smooth curve of the strung bugle, but rather a scroll with a slight "ripple" in it.

You could try 12th Londons (The Rangers), but I'm not 100% certain that Rangers officers wore the cord boss cap badge.

A close up of his buttons might be helpful - many of the London Regiment battalions had their own "regimental" buttons.

Cheers,

Mark

[Peter Zieminski]

Thanks Mark - I know I sometimes think I can make out something that I can't be sure of in reality as the brain is adept at making patterns make sense but looking again at the Collar Dog of the unknown Officer I think I can see the same Territorial 6th Bn Kings Liverpool Collar Dog lying at an angle of about 45 degrees to the right but perhaps I just want to see that to make progress! I have looked at the enhanced image again for the button but there isn't anything on it that can be made out due to the angle at which it lies - Thanks again for at least ruling out the KRRC!

[FROGSMILE]

Thanks Frogsmile - in the absence of your image can you confirm you think I'm on the right track with the 6th Kings Liverpool? If so my next step will be to contact the Regimental Museum as it may just be that they have photographs of Officers from which I may be able to find a match or perhaps identify a link between the Regiment and the location - being an Officer I would then expect that the Battalion War Diary would mention by name Officers killed-in-action.

The thing that surprises me is that having been commemorated in the way he has his Regiment or family didn't have some involvement which would have led to a positive identification.

This continues to be an interesting exercise!

Yes I do think there is a strong likelihood that it is 6th (Rifles) KLR, although I agree with Mark that the image is not perfect. Nevetheless, given the limitations of the original image I still think you are on the right track. I am not positive but I believe that officers of the Rangers wore a normal style of cap badge as opposed to a rope boss.

Albeit as an aside, it should also be remembered that the cord boss was not the exclusive preserve of rifle units, the Berkshire Regiment and RWF also wore it on some forms of dress. It seems to have had a connection with units that had served with the RN as marines.

Today I have been able to load an image of the 6th (Rifles) KLR collar badge.