slick63 Posted 27 September , 2012 Share Posted 27 September , 2012 I came across this pic in a book the mrs bought me at the weekend. Maybe early war because of the soft caps, side mounted scope on an SMLE plus a scope carrying tube slung on the chaps back. I`ve never delved into the sniping aspects of the great war, the only other pic I`ve seen was of some chap armed with a scoped sporter type rifle so I found this smle pic quite interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 27 September , 2012 Share Posted 27 September , 2012 It is a well known picture, used in most of the books about great War sniping. The sight is a Periscopic Prism Company telescope. Regards TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slick63 Posted 27 September , 2012 Author Share Posted 27 September , 2012 Cheers for that Tony, I had a feeling that the photo would be fairly common but couldn`t find anything on here with a search. I might delve into some books on the sniping subject Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 27 September , 2012 Share Posted 27 September , 2012 Cheers for that Tony, I had a feeling that the photo would be fairly common but couldn`t find anything on here with a search. I might delve into some books on the sniping subject Best bet (available from Amazon via the forum link... or a public libarary near you): Sniping in France: With Notes on the Scientific Training of Scouts, Observers, and Snipers by Hesketh Pritchard. there are other, more recent books but this is amongst the most comprehensive if you are interested in the British side of things. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 27 September , 2012 Share Posted 27 September , 2012 I certainly second Chris's comments above (although obviously that picture is not used in that book). The other excellent work is Skennerton's "British Sniper" but I am not sure if that is still in print. Although well put together, I do not recommend Martin Pegler's book on sniping in the Great War. It has many errors as does his Osprey book on the Lee-Enfield. Regards TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikB Posted 27 September , 2012 Share Posted 27 September , 2012 Hesketh-Prichard in 'Sniping In France' was pretty critical of the side-mounted scope because it couldn't be used with the standard loophole plate. The cylindrical case the man has looks too long for the rifle scope, and it isn't the GS Telescope. If it is a hand telescope presumably this is a private purchase or a 'Special' - donated or WD-purchased civilian telescope. Regards, MikB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 27 September , 2012 Share Posted 27 September , 2012 I think it is the case for the PPCo. telescope and that there is a degree of forshortening in the picture. It certainly looks like the cases that I have seen over the years. Cheers TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slick63 Posted 29 September , 2012 Author Share Posted 29 September , 2012 Cheers lads for the heads up on the books Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 29 September , 2012 Share Posted 29 September , 2012 Slick63, As TonyE stated, a Periscope Prism Co. telescopic sight, as fitted to the SMLE Mark III and III* rifles 1915 - 1918, with such sniper rifles being declared obsolete on 30th September 1921. ( photo of the sniper rifle with the Periscope Prism scope attached ) Other WW1 telescopic sights used were those made by Aldis, Fidgelands, E.R. Watts & Son, and Winchester. In the attached photo shown from the top of page are the Fidgelands, Watts, Periscope Prism and Winchester scopes. The fitted telescopic sights shown are from the top- Periscope Prism, Aldis and Winchester. Skennerton/The Lee-Enfield. Regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderbox Posted 29 September , 2012 Share Posted 29 September , 2012 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 29 September , 2012 Share Posted 29 September , 2012 Fantastic example! and apparently rare, Skennerton reports that in September 1921, these Sniper Rifles were ordered to be returned to the stores at Weedon to be replaced by the Pattern 1914 Sniper Rifle, and that the telescopic sights were stripped from the rifles, and presumably later sold off. Regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terrylee Posted 29 September , 2012 Share Posted 29 September , 2012 Here is another. Bought it in 1965. I know nothing about its history apart from the fact that it has is a B.S.A. dated 1916 and has South African military markings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 29 September , 2012 Share Posted 29 September , 2012 Thats a nice exampe Terrylee (you have some excellent rifles in your collection!) I particularly like this one because it shows some interesting features EG: an early front handguard (with a pronounced bump behind the band), an intermediate/crossover fore-end shaped for the volley sight at the front but without one fitted and not shaped for the rear peep, magazine cut-off fitted, lightened rear sight protectors (as on earlier production)...and an extra sling swivel in front of the magazine. Out of interest is the wrist marked as a MkIII* or MkIII? BSA produced MkIII* marked rifles in 1915 despite approval for the changes not happening until 1916. thanks for sharing this one! Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 29 September , 2012 Share Posted 29 September , 2012 Here is another. Bought it in 1965. I know nothing about its history apart from the fact that it has is a B.S.A. dated 1916 and has South African military markings. Terrylee, Another superb example, have now added it to my ' want list '. Thanks for sharing, Regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terrylee Posted 29 September , 2012 Share Posted 29 September , 2012 It would seem to have been a transitional rifle since although it is marked III* it has, as you have pointed out, a cut-off and other earlier characteristics. Of course, to what extent it was modified during conversion, service life, and possibly later I don't know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terrylee Posted 30 September , 2012 Share Posted 30 September , 2012 The WW I Martin Galilean sight used before British telescopic sights became freely available for use on sniper rifles. Its magnification is about 2. I have attached this example to a contemporary S.M.L.E. Mk.III for demonstration purposes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 30 September , 2012 Share Posted 30 September , 2012 Here is a whole sniper section armed with SMLEs fitted with Periscope Prism Co., or Aldis scopes, complete with captured German war booty. LF S. Chambers/British WW1 uniforms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roger cleverly Posted 24 November , 2014 Share Posted 24 November , 2014 I spotted the PPCo sighted Sht LE in a publication by David Shermer, Octopus Books Ltd back in 1976 and used it in an article on Great War British sniping rifles in the HBSA Journal shortly afterwards - it was used on the front cover. Ian Skennerton was over here on a scholarship from the Australian War Memorial and the article, by is own account, triggered his own research and eventual definitive publication on the subject which, again, reproduced the photo. I opted out of collecting firearms after the Hungerford shooting in 1987, surrendering my FAC, but my interest has been rekindled by a chance finding at a recent flea market of a 1916 vintage Aldis sight unusually with its original service mounts and, amazingly, the rifle bases in addition. Furthermore, unlike the Aldis sights set up by various well-known gunmakers listed in Skennerton's book, the mounts are over the bore rather than left offset, the method of mounting being identical to the 1918 pattern (PPCo) sight but unquestionably intended for use on the Lee-Enfield as opposed to the P'14. The photos will clarify this, the front base has the same transverse bar onto which the the front base claws hook from the rear and the square lug on the rear mount would lock into the P'14(T) rear mount - leaving the front claws in the air. The left offset leg in the rear mount is longer than that of the 1918 sight, as it is contoured to the rear left action wall of the Lee-Enfield immediately abaft the charger bridge, hence substantially lower than the P'14 base screwed to the rearsight protecting ear and inlet into its top. The front base is also much deeper, secured by single screws at the sides and in the top, and cut away at the lower rear to clear the Lee-Enfield bolt head. I suspect that this sight is a feasibility exercise prior to the adoption of the P'14/1918 in April 1918, the mounting is basically a simplified copy of the German system and the 1918 was a copy of a lightweight German design with windage adjusted by means of a calibrated rotating prism before the objective instead of mechanically in the rear mount. Three issues make me suspect that my sight was never set up :- 1. Minor filing was required to provide a snug fit prior to setting it up on a (deactivated) MkIII*. 2. The front rear screw base enters the rear left bolt locking lug recess of the rifle - for troop trials the mount would have been cantilevered back for the screws to clear the recess. 3. There is no windage provision. A record in the former Pattern Room at Enfield listed the WWI Lee-Enfield sniper rifles stripped of their mounts early in WW2 and put into run of work for reissue as standard rifles. This included an Aldis Experimental which may refer to this pattern. Periscopic Prism Co were contracted to produce the 1918 as they had been nationalised after failing to maintain their quota of their 1915 patent sight, it is clear that they struggled to get the new pattern into production and they barely saw front line service before the Armistice. Contracts were subsequently placed with Aldis for sights with the windage prism probably intended for substitute issuu on the P'14. Events left these in hand at the Armistice and they were sold into the trade. One is currently on a British dealer's website (Aldis No4, with an integral swell to the eye-piece instead of a separate black lacquered brass part), amusingly this is in a Winchester A5 telescope case with instructions in the lid referring to adjustment by micrometers, hence the original A5 instructions. Hopefully this my open further debate on this intriguing subject. RC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roger cleverly Posted 4 December , 2014 Share Posted 4 December , 2014 I've just completed a Powerpoint presentation, with annotation, on this subject using some of the photos in this thread plus from several other sources and drawing heavily on 'Sniping in France', I'd be happy to share this but its too bulky to send by email. If anyone would like a copy I could post it in a stick (returnable, please), my email address is rogercleverly@gmail.com RC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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