Ballot for places at Anzac Cove

[alliekiwi]

The New Zealand Herald - along with other news sources, undoubtedly - has published an article regarding the need for a ballot due to limited numbers at the centenary commemorations of the Gallipoli landing and Anzac Cove.

See here: Gallipoli ballot system for centenary celebrations.

The thing that gets me is the following (in particular the bolded section):

The government wants to gauge public opinion on whether certain groups, including descendants of those who served, should have priority, or whether all places in the ballot should be open to all New Zealanders.

Veterans groups have called for descendants of Gallipoli veterans to be given first choice to go.

I disagree. It is my understanding that the majority of NZEF soliders at Gallipoli (not sure about AIF) were unmarried. So making it descendants first is skewing it towards families whose soldiers at Gallipoli survived the war.

Considering the numbers allocated to each country are based [loosely] on the numbers of casualties - tentatively 2,000 places for NZ and 8,000 for Australia - it seems odd that the families of these men could be bumped down the list just because they have no direct descendants.

I think it should be open to all New Zealanders and Australians to try for the ballots.

Allie

[David B]

Not quite in agreement Allie. I think the positions should be ballotted to descendants/family descendants of soldiers who were at Gallipoli, otherwise you would finish up with

every bod who claims to be an Australian/Newzealander.

[alliekiwi]

I look at it this way:

• The majority of NZEF soldiers who fought at Gallipoli were unmarried at the time of their service.
  
• It follows that the majority of NZEF soliders who died as a result of action at Gallipoli were unmarried and thus have no 'direct' descendants (children, grandchildren etc)
  
• On Anzac Day, we march and lay wreaths to the fallen. "Lest we forget" and "We will remember them".
  
• The number of places allocated to New Zealanders (and Australians) is based on the number of soliders in the NZEF and AIF respectively who died as a result of action at Gallipoli. These are among the men we remember on Anzac Day.
  
• Therefore, it seems at odds to allocate preferential places to direct descendants of men who were veterens of Gallipoli and not to the families of the men who actually *died* there. Afterall, who are we gathering at Gallipoli to remember? Only the men who lived through it? Why should their families get preferential treatment over families who actually lost someone there?
  

[David B]

Allie,

That's what I meant, probably didn't come across as clearly as I would have liked. My fault for being in a hurry and being called to supper.

Definitely families/descendants of men who died there, followed by families/men who served there.If there are any more places then a ballot.

[Auimfo]

I think the key to this dilemma is the term 'descendants'. It doesn't stipulate 'direct descendants'. Therefore the relatives of a soldier who died (i.e. family of any siblings) should also be entitled to apply. Ok, that doesn't account for those men who were an only child but it probably covers the majority of them.

But to be honest, I can see a much bigger problem with the idea. Who is going to check the lineage? What's to stop someone from picking a soldier out of a hat and making up a line of descent linking themselves to him. I can't see the authorities combing through the records for proof of 10,000 submitted family trees!!

Cheers,

Tim L.

[alliekiwi]

You have a point there about checking lineage, Tim. That could be a bit of a nightmare given the numbers. Regarding direct or indirect lineage, they do differentiate between the two on the survey form put out by the NZ Govt.

8. It is estimated that today there are more than 30,000 to 40,000 direct descendants and several hundred thousand indirect descendants of New Zealand soldiers who served at Gallipoli.

If priority is given to descendants, this should include:

• Direct descendants only (i.e. children, grandchildren, great grandchildren)
  

• All descendants, direct or indirect (i.e. through a brother or sister of the soldier e.g. nieces/ nephews, great nieces/nephews)
  

• I do not think any descendants should be given priority
  

Allie

[Angrybudgie]

And there are apparently about 1 million Australians with a family link to a man who served on Gallipoli. What ever they do there are going to be unhappy people. A ballot open to all citizens is probably the best way to go. Much easier to check citizenship than family connections of 10,000 people.

On another note tour operators are already kicking up that they can not book as many people as they can sell tickets to.........

Elizabeth

[David B]

I note a report in a Melbourne newspaper that the chief of the armed forces thinks that the place should be left as it was when ANZACs first arrived. e.g. no one there at all. Bit over the top I think

Then no one would be satisfied. Methinks a lot of thought has to go into this.

[David B]

I note from todays press that the furore about visiting Gallipoli in 2015 is hotting up somewhat. Apparently a lot of people are upset because they have prebooked a tour,

one couple as early as 2008, and the government is saying forget all that, when the time comes there will be a ballot for places and any tour deposits may have to be

refunded. DVA has a website covering aspects of the 2015 reme/mberances the link of which is below.

www.gallipoli2015.dva.gov.au

[alliekiwi]

Well, I hope they can get a refund if necessary! I agree with the Aussie government - just because you decided to book back in 2008 (albeit becuse you knew it was going to be popular) doesn't mean you'll get to go. People have to be realistic and understand that, realistically, with a limited number of spots amd the huge interest, some sort of ballot has to happen.

I had a moment's disquiet when looking at our govt's survey as it asks:

5. What steps, if any, have you taken to attend the service at Gallipoli in 2015?

I am hoping that someone doesn't get priority just because they've made a booking with some sort of tour or travel agent.

Allie

[Waddell]

Shifting away from Gallipoli for a moment only, are any forum members aware of any Australian government preparations for the centenaries of the Western Front battles in 2016, 2017 and 2018? I hope there aren't going to be similar problems with space.

Also is the re-enactment of the troopships leaving Australia still on the books?

Scott

[David B]

Hi Scott,

In answer to your query - no am not aware of any governmental preparations yet. I think the problems with Gallipoli probably stem from the fact that there is not a lot of

room to manoeuvre large crowds around, they would be spilling into the ocean. I would think in France the problem would be more an accommodation factor and the fact that there

would be many, many more visitors wanting to go. Possible that they have a plan which hasn't been unfolded yet. Cheers, will get around to a PM one of these days. Am currently

more responsibilities than I care for.

[paul.hickey]

There are two official web sites that deal with the Gallipoli and broader centenary celebrations:

http://www.gallipoli2015.dva.gov.au/Pages/default.aspx

http://www.anzaccentenary.gov.au/index.htm

Cheers

Paul

[gilly100]

Hi All

While I understand many people wanting to attend Gallipoli on 25 April 2015, whether descendents or not, and I will not buy into that argument, I have always wanted to arrive at Gallipoli well after all the services, and enjoy the solitude amongst just a few like minded friends with the same passion for the history there. Barely a day goes by in daily living when I don't spare a thought for all the combatants back in 1915. So for me, walking around the hallowed ground in relative isolation is the best way I can think of paying my own tribute to those who fought there. It just feels so much closer to the heart that way, at least for me.

Pure logistics will see many disappointed I am sure, but if one re focuses the mind to accepting a visit at another time, the same homage can still be paid, and no less felt on any day of the year.

Cheers

Ian

[moggs]

Hi All

While I understand many people wanting to attend Gallipoli on 25 April 2015, whether descendents or not, and I will not buy into that argument, I have always wanted to arrive at Gallipoli well after all the services, and enjoy the solitude amongst just a few like minded friends with the same passion for the history there. Barely a day goes by in daily living when I don't spare a thought for all the combatants back in 1915. So for me, walking around the hallowed ground in relative isolation is the best way I can think of paying my own tribute to those who fought there. It just feels so much closer to the heart that way, at least for me.

Pure logistics will see many disappointed I am sure, but if one re focuses the mind to accepting a visit at another time, the same homage can still be paid, and no less felt on any day of the year.

Cheers

Ian

Entirely agree with you. Well said.

Jonathan

[1st AIF]

What I find amazing is that you can go to Gallipoli most days, take one of the tracks and often not see someone for the entire day. You can sit on a hill at the back of Quinns Post or Boltons Ridge or a hundred other places in quiet contemplation. I find that a much more amazing experience than being crammed in with thousands of other well meaning attendees.

Len