History of this P14 Enfield

[Koga]

Hey i have seen lots of threads on the history of the gun in genral but i would like to know if anyone has them means or knowledge to tell me about this action,

as far as i know its a P14 action and after looking closely i found some marks indicating is a Eddystone action then later it was remodelled by BSA and found its way to South africa where im not sure what happened but my father only got the action alone he then had a custom rifle built on it and now i am going to be taking it over from him because of all the mods this action has gone through i have found it hard to find the info myself but would be really interested in seeing what you guys think.

Thanx

[Koga]

ill post more pics here

and another

another

another

yet another

[Koga]

there are 2 "E"s stamped on the bolt but pic didnt turn out well so deleted it

[4thGordons]

It would be hard for me to tell if it was a Pattern 14 or a US M1917 from these pictures -- or even with the rifle in hand.

What calibre is it in now? If it is a rimless calibre such as 30.06 then I would have thought it more likely the donor action / bolt came from an M1917.

It has been pretty extensively modfied by the looks of it.

The piled rifles symbol (where is that located I can't work it out from the picture) appears to be a version of the BSA mark. Any chance of an overall view of the rifle.

None of the markings you show look to me to be obviously British military markings (with perhaps the exception of the asterisk if that is what it is) on the bolt body. This MAY indicate the rifle was originally a Pattern '14 MkI*

Between the wars Remington in the US made a civilian sporter version of the M1917 in 30.06 called the Model 30 which show up every so often. These were often supplied with a reciever mounted rear sight which your rifle appears to be tapped for (perhaps prior to installing the scope?) So I assume BSA converted rifles in a similar fashion. Having a look through older BSA catalogues might help you out... but I don't see much to go on as far as any identification of the original action from these pictures.

Chris

EDIT: I think this might be officially known as the BSA model D. They made several versions based on P14 actions, apparently in the 50s

Some pictures and information here.

I think it very unlikely you will be able to discover anything about the original action.

[Koga]

hey ye the info i found in a parker hale cataloge had what they called a BSA .303 Sportier with a write up on how it had been built on ex militery P14 actions, when my father got it it was a .303 he then had it modified to a 30-06. The holes in the side where there before yes. but i will add some pics to maybe help you

pic

trigger

the bolt

gun

[Koga]

the numbers on the left are the new barrel we had made for it from truvelo, but as far as i can tell the marking on the action is on of the proofing markings from ENgland and what i could read from it was BV under a crown, also on the other side of that BSA stamp it has made in England stamped there, which ofcoarse we know isint right cause they where made in USA however i think BSA stamped it there when they did the remodelling or the gun

also the bolt handle was changed from its original dog leg to the current on because my father didnt like the look at the time

[Koga]

also if you look in the first pic i posted behind the saftey there you can see something, thats a "E"

[Koga]

when i get the chance again then i will take a pic of the bolt face also, o and the BSA stamp is at the back of the action where the rear scope mounting is

[TonyE]

I agree with Chris, there is so little left of the original weapon that it is very hard to tell what it is. If it was originally in .303 inch calibre then it was a Pattern '14 as you say and is possibly an Eddystone.

However, the serial number you show on the side of the receiver is not a P.'14 serial as they did not mave an alpha prefix. It could have been put on by BSA at the time of the conversion but I see no sign that the original serial number that should be at that location has been scrubbed.

Also, why do you think the magazine has been shortened? It looks to have the original five round magazine and floor plate.

Sorry that we cannot be more helpful but there is so little to go on.

Regards

TonyE

[Koga]

as for the serial number i found on one forum somewhere that when BSA made the mods they did put a new number on and it started with M but thats as much as i could find out and have not been able to get anything from trying to research the number myself, what does the 760 on the under side of the action stand for? and also on the trigger you will see an "R" what is that for?

i thought it would be hard to get the info and if this is as much as i can find out then its fine, from what date to what date where they all made?

what dates did BSA do mods on these actions?

what is the star for on the bolt?

these are a few of the questions i am interested in finding out about, and any info is welcome, as i said maybe if i can get some other angle pics and part pics or even look for more marks i will put the pics up here.

thanx

[Koga]

o and what is the stamp on the under side of the bolt for M.G.5 or M.C.5

[4thGordons]

The meaning of many of the stamps you indicate is unknown to me.

They may be assembly identification marks (ie for grouping sub assemblies during production), they may be steel batch numbers (on the barrel) or numbers placed on components by BSA or some previous owner - they do not conform to any British military markings of which I am aware.

As it is not known when they were applied and as BSA apparently scrubbed the parts of existing markings thoroughly there is almost nothing to go on here. Sorry to be repetitive but as far as I can tell this is the situation. Without the original serial you cannot pin down date of production. As it has been refinished there is no way of telling if the E marked parts are original to the rifle or simply what BSA used when they rebuilt it. The barrel has been replaced which means the original proofings from the UK are gone and any previous markings (including probably a year) are also gone, and the reciever has been scrubbed so there are no clues there.

The reciever has been heavily machined (removing the rear protective "ears" from the back of the action, and I think where the BSA logo is stamped is actually an inserted pug of metal filling what was originally an oval void in the reciever.

The R on the trigger may well be a REMINGTON stamp (Remington also produced these rifles as did Winchester)

The mark on the bolt does not look like the asterisk I was expecting however it may indicate the same thing (there was an upgrade early in P14 production that enlarged the bolt lugs and their recieving holes in the reciever and this rifle was the P14 MkI* the bolt body and handle and the reciever were all marked with a * to signify this) MkI* rifles are far more common than MkI in my experience and would have made up the bulk of the surplus rifles acquired by BSA post WWII for the production of this rifle

Pattern 14 production mainly took place in 1916 terminating in early 1917 when the lines were converted to M1917 production for the AEF after the US entered the war. I do not have the precise dates to had but I am fairly confident the bulk were produced in 1916 (TonyE?)

It would seem to me to be a rather big job to convert from .303 to .30-06 (more than just the barrel) as I would think the extractor would need to be replaced (303 is rimmed 30.06 is rimless) and also I am not sure that 30.06 rounds would actually fit/feed from the .303 magazine as they are longer. One of the differences between the M1917 and the P14 is the dimensions of the magazine well and stock inletting for it so I think this would need to be modified too.

P14/M1917 actions are a strong design an were frequently modified as hunting rifles in the US when surplus rifles were available in large numbers. One finds them in all sorts of calibres and finished with widley varying levels of skill from simple hacksawing down of the stock to accomplished professional work like yours. On the former many of the original markings remain allowing something of the history of the rifle to be understood. In cases like this I do not believe there is really anything to go on.

If you wanted a possible "potted history" of the rifle (assuming it is a P14) I would offer the following GUESS (based purely on the odds/what happened to most)

Produced in 1916 at Remington or Eddystone

Sent to the UK when it either went straight into storage or saw some use with training units.

Put into storage post-war 1919/20

Removed from storage in 1939/40 passed through the Weedon Repair Program (WRS) where its volley sights were removed and it was cleaned up and certified as serviceable

Issued to a Home Guard / LDV unit in 40-41 used in this capacity until replaced.

Placed in storage at the end of the war

Surplussed out to BSA in the early 50s

Converted to the sporting format and sold on the civillian market.

Very few (if any standard P14 rifles) saw action on the Western Front. Some of the rifles were sent to India directly from the factory, some were supplied to the Baltic states post WWI, many supplied to Greece post WWII -- however given that your rifle was acquired by BSA from the british govt it is unlikely that your rifle is one of these - hence the story above. It is unlikely that your rifle was ever in combat of fired in "anger"

But it is a testament to the design and materials that @100 years after it was produced (although heavily modified) it remains a perfectly serviceable hunting rifle.

Chris

[Koga]

Hey guys thank you so much for all the info that you have given me about this gun, a pity that we are left with so little to go on but i will look again next time i strip the rifle and also i will take some pics of the bolt face and other things to possibly give you guys something to work with.

thanx again and hope to put those pics up soon

[Koga]

late posting this but some other pics

sigh now got no more disc space or something like that, o well