Suffolk Regiment Uniform

[Kiegsien]

Is this uniform from WWI or the Boer War please?

[Chief_Chum]

He is a Suffolk Regiment Kitchener Volunteer who has served in the South African War.

His second jacket button is wrapped in black mourning crepe too so he must have lost a friend or relative in action.

Nice photo; do you know who he is?

Cheers,

Taff

[Kiegsien]

Thanks Taff, that supports the info. I have been able to piece together about him. He is my grandfather John CRICKMORE 1878 - 1956. I have another thread about him & his brothers over on Units & Formations. How long would he have worn the black crepe? It might help date this photo pretty accurately as he lost 2 brothers in early 1915.

Thanks again,

Kieg.

[Chief_Chum]

Hi Kieg,

The black buttons were unofficial as far as I know so I suspect they didn't wear them for very long but the photograph certainly could have been taken early in 1915.

Glad to be able to help.

Best wishes,

Taff

[Kiegsien]

Hi Taff,

Would you mind telling me what in the photo tells you he was a volunteer & fought in SA, so that I can use that info. myself on other photos.

I could have answered my original question myself if I'd looked at the original yesterday instead of today. My Mum had written on the back 'Dad, during the Great War 1914 - 18' but then I wouldn't have learned about the black crepe on the button.

Thanks.

Kieg.

[Muerrisch]

Would you mind telling me what in the photo tells you he was a volunteer

and me!

Can't see anything to help!

[Chief_Chum]

"Would you mind telling me what in the photo tells you he was a volunteer

and me!

Can't see anything to help!"

Sorry for not replying sooner. Sadly my Mum died suddenly in hospital on Sunday evening so everything is a bit hectic here at present. However, it is good to have a distraction for a few minutes so here goes:

If Pte Crickmore was a Regular soldier he would rather have eaten his own boots than be photographed without a waistbelt. An old sweat would not even have got out of the barrack gate without one.

Likewise, his Boer War Queen's South Africa and King's South Africa Medals tell us he is an old soldier who would also not be seen out without a waistbelt.

If he was a Reservist, recalled to the Colours, he would have had a waistbelt issued to him (and worn it to have his photograph taken). I can also find no photographs of recalled Reservists in 'simplified' jackets either. The Reservists Clothing Store and Armoury at Gibraltar Barracks had enough kit ready and waiting for all the Reservists when they received their invites to participate in the Great European War in August, 1914.

If he was a member of his battalion Transport Section he would have had no belt but he would have had a 1903 pattern bandolier and, usually, a woven lanyard on his left shoulder. His trousers are not easy to see but they could be breeches.

His cap badge tells us that he is not a Territorial as the Suffolk Territorials all wore the TF version of the cap badge, even if they were 2/4th, 3/5th etc.

Therefore, Pte Crickmore, J. is either a sloppy soldier or, much more likely, he has not yet been issued a waistbelt.

However, the photographic evidence is quite clear for the Suffolk Regiment Service Battalions of Kitchener's New Armies:

7th (Service) Battalion are mostly equipped with existing stocks of khaki serge uniforms quite quickly (although some are issued withthe original pattern of 'Kitchener Blue' uniforms). No sign of any equipment to begin with.

The 8th (Service) Battalion all seem to have received Kitchener Blues right from the start and get khaki much later.

The 9th (Service) Battalion are all in Kitchener Blue (with 'SUFFOLK' shoulder titles as collar badges) which they are certainly still wearing when their '14 Pattern leather equipment is issued.

The 10th (Service) Battalion all appear to have been issued with fresh stocks of khaki serge (presumably manufacture of khaki dye had finally caught up by the time 4th New Army was raised) although they are turned into a Training Reserve Battalion.

The 11th (Cambridgeshire) Service) Battalion are issued with a dark blue version of the standard ORs uniform and have their '14 pattern leather equipment very quickly.

So, my guess would be 7th or 10th Battalion at the issued-with-khaki-serge-but-not-yet-received-any-equipment-stage. If the photographer's studio is marked on the card it should narrow it down a bit too. I have over 3,500 Suffolk Regiment photographs so, if I had the time, I could probably identify the photographer's studio by the 'prop' John is resting his hand on.

I fully accept that he could be a regular, in a simplified jacket, who had an aversion to waistbelts, but, on balance the early stiff cap, standard cap badge, the simplified jacket, the lack of belt all shout out Suffolk Regiment Kitchener volunteer to me...

Cheers,

Taff

PS: Wrapping buttons in black crepe was an unofficial practice which, although widely seen, was discouraged so, in answer to "how long would he have worn it?", the answer would probably have been, "until he was told not to"!

[tipperary]

Taff,My Sympathies on your loss,john

[Steven Broomfield]

Elementary, my dear Watson.

I'm impressed that he took the time to sew his SA medal ribbons on in good time for the photo. Had he not, I've have wondered if he'd borrowed a photographer's prop (as my old g-dad did) for the photo.

Taff,My Sympathies on your loss,john

Me too.

[Chief_Chum]

Thank you fellas.

I really appreciate your kind words.

Taff

"I'm impressed that he took the time to sew his SA medal ribbons on in good time for the photo. Had he not, I've have wondered if he'd borrowed a photographer's prop (as my old g-dad did) for the photo."

Yes, that was certainly pretty common too but Pte Crickmore does, at least, look as if this suit is his own.

[Kiegsien]

Dear Taff,

I'm very sorry to hear of your sad loss & it's very kind of you to continue to help me.

As I've stated elsewhere I'm pretty clueless about the details of WWI soldiering. You've given me a lot of info. here & I'm not sure I understand it. Does the following fit with what you are saying & is Steve saying he wasn't a soldier/in the war?

John CRICKMORE died when I was 6 but I grew up knowing he had fought in the Boer War & WWI. I don't think the family would have lied about it especially as I also grew up knowing that his first 3 children were illegitimate at a time when that sort of thing wasn't talked about. Two of his brothers appear on the War Memorial in Christchurch Park Ipswich.

There is a J CRICKMORE on the SA Medal Rolls in the 1st Suffolks with the no' 4433 which apparently means he attested between 5/2/1896 & 21/9/1897. John was 18 in Oct 1896. All the CRICKMORE brothers attested during their 19th year. His brother Alfred lists one of his NOK in 1905 as John in the Suffolks. John's service record hasn't survived. None of the 5 were to be seen in 1901.

He was in civvy street when his first child was born in 1910 & when he married in Sep 1914. By Dec 1914 he was in France. His service record has again not survived but I know the MIC for John CRICKMORE Suffolk Regt 10159 & Royal Scots is him as when his 4th child was born in Nov 1916 he is recorded as Private 3rd Batt Suffolk Rgt No' 10159. She was given the middle name Belgium.

Are they his medal ribbons above his left breast pocket?

I don't understand about the waist belt. The 3rd Suffolks was the Reserve Battalion. If he hadn't been issued with a belt then the photo would be before Dec 1914. I thought the photo was from 1915 as he lost his brothers in Jan & Apr that year but now I've had another thought.

Would a soldier be given leave for a dying child? John's 3rd child was badly scalded in early Feb 1916 & died 6 days later. Would the black crepe have been worn then? It would certainly put him in the right place for the child born in Nov.

Grateful thanks for any thoughts on this.

Kieg.

[Muerrisch]

Taff, sorry to hear of your loss.

I cannot dispute [wouldn't dare] your analysis, he is certainly old enough for SA ribbons, and he is certainly in mourning. The problem areas seem to be:

his early arrival in France

who was he mourning

would he still be beltless in France in mourning in 1915?

Ways back for an ex-regular in 1914 were: re-enlist regulars [does number fit, it might]

enlist 3rd Special Reserve [not for long, because SR recruitment was allowed to wither on the vine, check SR numbering in 1914]

enlist Kitchener-style ........ I haven't checked Suffolks but I suspect the Kitcheners used the regular series.

The fact he is listed as 3rd bn helps nothing: all soldiers "back" in the UK for other than the most trivial short stay were borne on the SR battalion cum-Depot books as a matter of course.

Something a bit enigmatic about this one ............. !

[Chief_Chum]

"Taff, sorry to hear of your loss."

Thanks Grump.

Kieg - sorry for leaping in at the deep end and adding to your confusion. He is certainly a Boer War and a Great War soldier and, yes, his medal ribbons are sewn above his left breast pocket. His early service number ties in with the info you have and he would no longer have been a Reservist by the time the war broke out which also ties up with what we know about him.

Answering some of Grump's points: I have recently been doing some work for a well known TV series about celebs tracing family history and a very similar case came up. He was a soldier with previous service who enlisted as a Kitchener volunteer and joined a Service Battalion but, by Christmas 1914, was posted to a regular battalion of the Buffs (I think). John Crickmore could have done the same as he had previous service. That would suggest he was serving with the Suffolks' 7th (Service) Battalion, who we know received khaki uniforms before they received their '14 Pattern leather equipment, before being posted to France.

If he did serve in France with the Suffolks in December 1914 he could only have been serving with the 2nd or 1/4th Battalion. However, as the 1/4th were Territorials, it must have been the 2nd who were a Regular Battalion (Terriers were enlisted on different terms and, besides, 1/4th had only just arrived and had very few casualties before Neuve Chapelle..

The service numbers continued from Regulars to Service Battalion (men who signed up only for the duration of the war) men. Those who originally served with the 3rd (Special Reserve) Battalion had a " 3/ " prefix. The service number of Sgt Arthur Saunders, VC, was 3/10133 but I don't think anyone has managed to work out if he was enlisted directly into the 3rd (SR) Battalion or if he was posted to them and acquired the 3/ prefix later as happened to some men.

The mourning button could be misleading; it could be a relative but it could also be a former work colleague, a school chum or anyone else for that matter...

Taff

[squirrel]

Sorry to hear about your mother Taff - sincere condolences.

This has developed in to an extraordinarily interesting thread.

[Dave1418]

Taff, sorry for your loss.

Having looked at the tunic it is of the later pattern without pocket pleats and without the shoulder protectors I am not sure of the date that these economies came into being but I thought it was later than 1915. Could anyone assist with a clarification on this please

[Andrew Upton]

Having looked at the tunic it is of the later pattern without pocket pleats and without the shoulder protectors I am not sure of the date that these economies came into being but I thought it was later than 1915. Could anyone assist with a clarification on this please

The "Simplified" SD jacket comes into existence in very late 1914 and probably reaches its height of issue during 1915/16, before gradually being seen in reducing numbers over the latter part of the war (as the initial hurried need to supply jackets is met and more suppliers are able to turn out the normal/unsimplified jacket instead).

[T8HANTS]

Sorry to hear of your loss, old Chum.

G

[Dave1418]

Andrew

Many thanks for your quick reply

Dave

[Kiegsien]

Hi All,

I've been away for a couple of days & only just picked up this thread again. I'm hoping to get to Kew in the next week or so: will the medal rolls help at all with this?

Kieg.

[spof]

Hi Kieg

The medal roll should be your first port of call. The link I sent you on the other thread will get you the the Royal Scots rolls for his BWM and VM. I've attached a sample of what you should, in theory, see.

His 1914-15 Star is harder to find. It is to code 'LO' which is not one issued to either the Suffolks or the Royal Scots.That is the one which will tell you what unit he went abroad with.

[Kiegsien]

Thanks Taff & Glen for the extra info. I'll post what I've found after I've been to Kew.

Kieg.

[Chief_Chum]

"Sorry to hear of your loss, old Chum.

G"

Thank you. Much appreciated.

T