Digs on battlefields

[dorrie]

Don't know whether this is the right topic area but I have heared of historical groups that visit batllefields and have organised digs in an effort to preserve battle fields and artefacts. Does any body know of any such organsiations that encourage enthusiastic, inexperienced volunteers

Cheers
Dorrie

[john kemp]

This is an area that I am also interested in.

There is the "Diggers" who have their own website but Im not sure whether

you can go along with them.

Perhaps they could arrange an open day event where anyone from this site

could go along and meet up ?

There must be some Health & Safety issues with this ?

John

[Aurel Sercu]

Dorrie and John,

In the past 4 - 5 years we (the Diggers) have welcomed many visitors at our Saturday afternoon digs (the majority UK). I myself always acted as the contact person. However, as many members know, a few months ago I left the team, and as such can no langer arrange for these visits. As far as I know there is no one else who has replaced me.

I must also say that due to some reasons we could never allow the visitors to assist in the digs (a matter of our license, of safety, ...)

Aurel

http://www.diggers.be/

[Ralph J. Whitehead]

If it is the same there as here many times the amateur is not really welcome. The dig sites are small and do not have room for many extra people. There is also the issue of licensing requirements that some countries might have and possibly the issue of control over finds, proper work etc.

I too would love to join in on something related to the war after having joined several Native American digs locally. As part of the No Man's Land Group I can at least join in through information and after reading the find sheets in a sort of vicarious way. Not the same as being there but still rewarding.

I could see buying a piece of the front and taking it on as a professional dig one day, anyone want to join me?

Ralph

[john kemp]

Would be great to do our own dig but Im sure its not as easy as just turning

up with a shoval and away you go.

Anyone know if there is any restrictions on those that own the land such as

High Wood.

Can they just go round digging it up ?

Im not sure if I would want to own a piece of land like this, especially with

two young children running around with their buckets and spades !!!

John

[Somme1916]

While at University I minored in Archeology and I know it isn’t too hard to teach the average person how to “properly” dig on an archeological site. The big thing on the Western Front are the national laws that both France & Belgium have that regulate who can organize and conduct digs i.e. for safety reasons and to protect their national heritage.

As Aurel pointed out the Digger’s license did not allow for non members to participate due to insurance/safety reasons etc. With all the unexploded ordnance, sharp bits of metal, gas shells etc. it’s easy to see why such strict controls are needed. A fellow forum member can personally attest to the dangers mustard gas can still poses after 85+ years! Digging on a “modern” age battlefield in France holds many more dangers than digging on a pre-Columbian Native American site in North Carolina so I personally understand why these controls are in place.

Jon

[Ralph J. Whitehead]

My kids are 22 and 26 and I doubt they would join me as our daughter is pregnant and my son works in Washington. I suspect that as a land owner you could do almost anything on your own land as long as there are no specific laws against it. At the present I have no idea of the laws and restrictions of the French government. All of these things including safety from unexploded ammunition would need to be explored.

I do recall that the methods I used in the last digs were time consuming and tredious, not something for the faint hearted or small children. Stil, the offer stands,

Ralph

[domsim]

Battlefield archaeology is definitely an up and coming subject in British universities. Although no department yet has a course on it a number of projects are starting highlight this areaand it is now an established part of conference agendas.

Phil Freeman at Liverpool has been surveying Crimean war sites around Sebastabol, Tony Pollard of Glagow Uni. & 2 Men and a Trench fame has worked on a number of sites.

I have been involved on a survey in the coastal plain in Flanders around Ostend, mainly looking at early Medieaval settlement using geophysics and we have recorded elements of the German secondary lines in the area.

I was also involved in a survey in Jordan looking at roman forts but we also recorded Ottoman army defences on the Hejaz railway.

Dominic.

[ironmarc]

Would be really interesting to join such a digging group but don't think that will happen.

Illeagal digging can be very dangerous and can get you a very big ticket!

But I don't know if the are many controls in France and Belgium?

[Simon R]

Archaeology flourished with a strong volunteer digging force in the 60's -, a force which was largely obliterated by the rise of Professionalism and the 'poaching' effect of the developing Green Movment (culture vs nature and all that). It is highly regrettable (although inevitable in the current climate) that if you want to get involved in the UK you invariably have to pay through the nose to do so.

A really vast array of physical material falls under various facets of 'the law' in the UK. No matter what category of archaeological material you're working with, archaeology and law go hand in hand.

Finally could I remind all UK forum members that the forthcoming August Bank Holiday was initially instituted by George Lubbock to allow the great unwashed to visit public museums. Go and do it, your museums need you!

[Paul Reed]

I am afraid no such situation exists where you can legally engage in Battlefield Archaeology on the Western Front unless you are/were like the Diggers, licenced to do so - as Aurel has mentioned.

There are indeed H&S issues, especially as regards munitions. While it is something many people would love to do, realistically it is something most of us will never be in a position to do, for all sorts of reasons. Otherwise whole sections of the front would be 'looted' overnight by those with far less honourable intentions than those who have posted here.

Digging on the front, as we have stated elsewhere in a recent thread, is against the law. As is the use of metal detectors. Huge finds exist if you are caught, and the CWGC or others will not issue 'permission' to dig in battlefield areas. It is forbidden, for many good reasons.

[john kemp]

I have been thinking of buying a place on the Somme, are there any laws

on digging on your own patch.

Not sure I would be keen on digging some footings for a new place !!!!

[Aurel Sercu]

(...) no such situation exists where you can legally engage in Battlefield Archaeology on the Western Front unless you are/were like the Diggers, licenced to do so - as Aurel has mentioned (...)

To which I can even add that having a licence (like the Diggers have) does not even allow them to go and dig wherever they want in the Salient. Only when places are threatened by building activity or road works. (Like the industrial estate at Boezinge, or the Zuiderring near Ypres). One day (in Feb 2002) when some very partial remains of Canadian soldiers were said to have been found by workmen near Passendale, we had to obtain special permission to continue the dig there.

Aurel

[JulianB]

as a professional archaeologist, and one that works in a museum, I suppose I ought to add my tuppenceworth.

I get the feeling that there have been various comments on the forum that are somewhat anti-museum and anti-archaeologist and may be it's time we put the record straight.

Archaeology is a science, that can be taught and should be open to all, though I have to admit that some "excavations" in the western front area that I've seen on TV have left me horrified by the lack of proper recording and scant regard for proper techniques. So much more can be learnt from a properly conducted dig, so much is lost when things (& people !) are unceremoniously hoiked out of the ground without due methodology. The reason we distrust "tomb looters" and "metal detectorists" is that they usually damage the "information" available from the "context" that some artefact has been retrieved from. I don't have a problem with private ownership / acquisition as long as any objects are available for proper study (we get people bringing in things all the time), and that the whole context of a site is understood, a site woithout artefacts can often be just as interesting, ie much can still be learnt using proper techniques.

there are, plenty of professionals out there, and yes, most professional outfits in UK do run training course - some of which are free, try CBA, IFA, etc etc

(incidentally I have never dug up a battlefield, although I'm interested and have been to 'battlefield archaeology' conferences, my interest in 1WW is more historical, rather a modern period to me !)

[Simon R]

We've got to avoid dropping shorts on our own front line here! I think most of us who've posted here would broadly agree with you!

In my own area there has always been a strong (if small) amateur (nee antiquarian) movement, and a pioneering one at that. It has managed this almost entirely without the help of professional archaeologists. This is because they stay in one place and slog away for years; fieldwalking, documentary research, various forms of collecting, recording etc. Archaeology as a practice, something integral to life. Long term, local work. Not a common situation, I agree, but has occured here. There are indeed a lot of professionals out there - most of them without jobs! Has the vivid interest in archaeology in the UK been turned into kinetic energy driving a new volunteer force? Perhaps APPAG can tell us, I don't know.

p.s. I shall be ankle deep in hordes of screaming children Bank Holiday Monday at the museum I work for, pray for me.

[telaw]

I'd like to echo everything that Julian B said and add that the battlefields of WW1 are a dangerous place.

I'd further like to add that archaelogically little is to be gained from digging in these areas. Battlefield archaeology has been used to great affect in more historical events. For example in the 1980's a prairie fire burnt away the dense undergrowth around the Platte River giving archaeologists an opportunity to extend the knowledge of the actual events of the battle of the Little Big Horn. Bullets, arrowheads and assorted finds gave a clearer picture of movements of both sides in the final minutes of battle.

Most areas in France and Belguim are a mixed morass of jumbled finds that would not nelp in identyfying any particular knowledge. Also there is little, artitifact-wise, that doesn't already exist in mint condition in museums, homes and collections.

One advantage of the digging is that human remains are found, identified and given a decent burial- but this is not archaeology.

Tom

[Paul Reed]

Archaeology is a science, that can be taught and should be open to all, though I have to admit that some "excavations" in the western front area that I've seen on TV have left me horrified by the lack of proper recording and scant regard for proper techniques.

Being an historian, rather than an archaeologist, if I judged the study of history by what I saw on TV (especially commercial TV), then I would be a very sad bunny indeed.

Let's get this into perspective - TV is TV. It never shows the nitty-gritty, which doesn't of course mean that the nitty-gritty doesn't happen 'behind the scenes'.

[Paul Reed]

Most areas in France and Belguim are a mixed morass of jumbled finds that would not nelp in identyfying any particular knowledge.

That is your opinion, but one that many of those who work in this field would not recognise or agree with. On what do you base it, out of interest?

[Bert Heyvaert]

As far as I know, you can not set up your own dig anywhere on the battlefield, this seems quite obviuos to me.

However, for those interested in joining in on a battlefield dig, the Flemish institute for archaeological patrimony is currently involved in two projects; One is examining German lines in Boezinge and the other one is on Pilkem Ridge. Boezinge is continuing in september and Pilkem Ridge next year. As far as I know anyone interested in archaeology and capable of handling spade and shuffle can join in, they always greet extra manpower. When I was doing placement in Boezinge we had a cook working for NATO in Brussels who joined our team, and although he only spoke English he quite enjoyed it. If you are interested in joining in on one of these projects please contact me off forum and I will bring you in contact with the archaeologist in charge.

Excavations on the Flemish battlefields are an interesting experience, but be prepared for 7 hours of digging in heavy clay soil, that means sticky and heavy when wet, and hard as concrete in dry summer months> I am sure Aurel will second that. Some sites will also bring up hardly any results. Also most of the personel are workmen, who don't speak English.

Best,

Bert>

[JulianB]

I'm not quite sure how to operate the "quotes" bit, but responding to Paul R about tv being tv and there being something behind it.

Well, yes, sort of, I did contribute sometyhhing to the debate on Time Team a while ago. When I was involved in them I realised how naive I was only (regrtetably) after a day or 2, with the dawning that they really weren't interested in archaeology but in making a good tv programme - though that does not necessarily go for individuals on the series.

Yes, we picked up many (metaphorical) pieces afterwards, but hell. they were there to do their job I was their to do mine.

I'm sure that Bert is getting to this with the invitation which I'm sure includes training in archaeological methodology.

[Simon R]

I'd further like to add that archaelogically little is to be gained from digging in these areas.

Most areas in France and Belguim are a mixed morass of jumbled finds that would not nelp in identyfying any particular knowledge. Also there is little, artitifact-wise, that doesn't already exist in mint condition in museums, homes and collections.

Tom

What's your evidence for all this? There's a vast panoply of evidence to the contrary in the form of the historic landscape!!

I am at a loss to understand how the excavation of human remains is not archaeology. You never know what you might find, excavated evidence can utterly confound received wisdom.

Ploughsoil is a 'mixed morass of jumbled finds' but it's still a context and if we find a bronze age torque, flints, Roman pot in it, we don't ignore it. We can map, plan, understand. Archaeology as a practice!

Oh well, each to their own.

[Simon R]

Julian,

Similar experience with PPG16 here - doesn't do what it says on the tin. Am I naive? Or do I unreasonably expect people to actually do what they say they're going to?

[JulianB]

Simon,

firstly thank you for the retort to the idea that archaeology provides little on the western front. The whole point is that properly done archaeological investigations CAN indeed enlighten what may be difficult otherwise, and yes bodies are archaeological.

I'm glad you put the record straight and know of lots of other archaeologists who will applaud you.

well, I guess we have become sanguine about ppg16 and the whole commercial set up - the one issue that appag did not address of course !

but this is getting seriously off topic

(is there a battlefield arch chat forum !! ??)

Julian

[Somme1916]

Tally Ho! Once more into the breach! Etc etc etc.

Ah, battlefield archeology, the archeological record, national laws & relic hunting on the Western Front; I remember the debates in several other threads so well.

Any body found an atomic detinator on the Western Front date stamped 1918 yet?

Jon

[Simon R]

Alright mate.... have a few smilies of your own, you cad, like this one which just looks mental. Point taken though.