gordon92 Posted 20 August , 2012 Share Posted 20 August , 2012 The photo below is of a group of Royal Scots that is almost certainly 1914 or slightly earlier given that one man is wearing a full dress doublet. Curiously, the shoulder patches appear to be absent on the Service Dress jackets worn by the other men. Would Joe Sweeney or somebody else care to comment on this SD jacket configuration? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Sweeney Posted 21 August , 2012 Share Posted 21 August , 2012 Mike, When you say shoulder patches are you referring to what are called rifle patches. These are the extra material above the breast pockets? Could you blow-up some of the figures especially the man standing at the left? I think I can make out most having the rifle patches but him. If not the rifle patches I'm not sure what you may be referring to. Joe Sweeney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon92 Posted 21 August , 2012 Author Share Posted 21 August , 2012 Mike, When you say shoulder patches are you referring to what are called rifle patches. These are the extra material above the breast pockets? Could you blow-up some of the figures especially the man standing at the left? I think I can make out most having the rifle patches but him. If not the rifle patches I'm not sure what you may be referring to. Joe Sweeney Joe, Thanks for weighing in. Yes, I did mean 'rifle patches.' In looking more closely, I do see your point that it is possible to discern the rifle patches on all but the man standing on left. Below is all the resolution I can get on this man. Do you see the rifle patches on him? I do not think I can. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 21 August , 2012 Share Posted 21 August , 2012 The this is the best I can do with the original image (which is 72dpi - do you have the original to rescan at higher res and then crop?) I tweaked the contrast which should highlight seams and I have to admit I do not see obvious rifle patches. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon92 Posted 21 August , 2012 Author Share Posted 21 August , 2012 The this is the best I can do with the original image (which is 72dpi - do you have the original to rescan at higher res and then crop?) I tweaked the contrast which should highlight seams and I have to admit I do not see obvious rifle patches. Chris Chris, I am afraid I do not have the original photo to scan. Thanks for manipulating the image to look for seams. I hope that Joe can re-enter the conversation with additional insight. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovetown Posted 23 August , 2012 Share Posted 23 August , 2012 I wonder, given the seemingly extra length of the man's breast pockets (and that I can't discern any pleats on them either), if he is wearing a Simplified - from which the rifle patches were deleted. Cheers, GT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon92 Posted 23 August , 2012 Author Share Posted 23 August , 2012 I wonder, given the seemingly extra length of the man's breast pockets (and that I can't discern any pleats on them either), if he is wearing a Simplified - from which the rifle patches were deleted. Cheers, GT. GT, thanks for the input. The complication with this thought is that one man is wearing a full dress doublet thus dating the photo, with high likelihood, to not later than August 1914. Didn't the Simplified pattern appear in Nov 1914? Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 23 August , 2012 Share Posted 23 August , 2012 GT, thanks for the input. The complication with this thought is that one man is wearing a full dress doublet thus dating the photo, with high likelihood, to not later than August 1914. Didn't the Simplified pattern appear in Nov 1914? Mike Mike - I don't think your dress doublet date is very safe -- there are plenty of photos of highlanders in Bedford in late 1914 and early 1915 wearing them -- so there is every chance of an overlap here. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon92 Posted 23 August , 2012 Author Share Posted 23 August , 2012 Mike - I don't think your dress doublet date is very safe -- there are plenty of photos of highlanders in Bedford in late 1914 and early 1915 wearing them -- so there is every chance of an overlap here. Chris Chris, I had thought that the doublets were packed away into storage upon mobilization. I stand corrected. So, Grovetown's hypothesis that at least one man is wearing a simplified pattern SD jacket is possible. Wonder if there could have been a hybrid worn by the men other the soldier standing on the left consisting of pleated pockets without rifle patches? Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 23 August , 2012 Share Posted 23 August , 2012 I suspect that they (like sporrans etc) perhaps SHOULD have been -- but clearly they were not. I think they were largely left in the UK when battalions went abroad - even so - there are pictures of sporrans which apparently stowed away and made it to F&F. (usually to be seen on senior NCOs btw) Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 24 August , 2012 Share Posted 24 August , 2012 Grumpy's golden rule with respect to uniform items: There is usually an ascertainable date for "no earlier than", but very rarely a date date for "not later than". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon92 Posted 24 August , 2012 Author Share Posted 24 August , 2012 Grumpy's golden rule with respect to uniform items: There is usually an ascertainable date for "no earlier than", but very rarely a date date for "not later than". A very pragmatic golden rule! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Clifton Posted 8 September , 2012 Share Posted 8 September , 2012 Another point to bear in mind is that men were normally issued with two SD jackets. One might be kept for "best" and not have rifle patches, whereas the other, for daily wear, might have the patches. Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon92 Posted 8 September , 2012 Author Share Posted 8 September , 2012 Another point to bear in mind is that men were normally issued with two SD jackets. One might be kept for "best" and not have rifle patches, whereas the other, for daily wear, might have the patches. Ron Interesting point, Ron. Indeed, the Royal Scots and other Lowland regiments would have been issued with two SD jackets from 1902 onwards. However, even though it does not apply to the original picture, the Highland regiments received only one SD jacket because they retained the white drill-jackets before the start of the War. While I do not know for sure, I imagine the same would be the case for Guards battalions. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 9 September , 2012 Share Posted 9 September , 2012 correct in so far as Clothing Regs. concerned, both for Highland and Guards BUT [a big BUT] this "personal" clothing was funded quarterly and the soldier was expected to maintain his clothing within that or be debited any excess. From what I have read it would be a very imprudent soldier who did not manage "one way or the other" to have a "best" SD for show and another for duty wear. It was in the nature of things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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