Royal Irish Rifles or Ulster Volunteers?

[Anneca]

Two photographs, the same man in each. He was in the Royal Irish Rifles, KIA at the Somme. Since there are no cap badges, apart from one which I can't identify, could these photos have been taken when he was in the Ulster Volunteers before enlisting in the Rifles? (He was the brother of the man in my last topic in Uniforms & Cap Badges, who was in the Royal Engineers KIA in Gallipoli).

[EDWARD1]

The lower photo has the soldier in the centre with a cap badge of the Royal Irish Rifles. Winged Harp and Coronet

Eddie

[Anneca]

The lower photo has the soldier in the centre with a cap badge of the Royal Irish Rifles. Winged Harp and Coronet

Eddie

Thank you very much Eddie. Would you know why the others in the photo have no cap badges, were they maybe new recruits?

[depaor01]

As far as I know the Ulster Volunteers' dress was, unlike the top photo, similar to the Irish Volunteers - slouch hat, bandoliers et al. However the rifles in the top photo aren't British Army, but the uniforms are (in places). OK I give up!

[Anneca]

As far as I know the Ulster Volunteers' dress was, unlike the top photo, similar to the Irish Volunteers - slouch hat, bandoliers et al. However the rifles in the top photo aren't British Army, but the uniforms are (in places). OK I give up!

That's very interesting - uniforms may be British Army but rifles are not. This gets more intriguing! The man with the 'X' in the top photo was in the Ulster Volunteers and then in the Royal Irish Rifles. His Battalion was formed in September 1914 and trained at Ballykinler camp in County Down before going to Seaford in Sussex in July 1915. They went for further training on 2 September that year to Bordon & Bramshott and landed at Bologne on 4 October 1915 before going on to fight at the Somme the next year.

What puzzles me is that on looking at old photos of the Ulster Volunteers they seem to have belts and cap badges which is not the case in these photos and as Eddie has said, the soldier in the centre of the second photo has the cap badge of the Royal Irish Rifles. Both photos look like there are tents in the background which leads me to think these were taken in a training camp.

[Murrough]

Did not the UVF train with the arms they smuggled in from Germany before they were issued British arms? this is most likely a pic from the initial formation of the Ulster Div. and before the Division was fully equipped.

[depaor01]

In uniform terms they seem to have been better equipped than other revolutionaries "on the island of Ireland"!

[Anneca]

Did not the UVF train with the arms they smuggled in from Germany before they were issued British arms? this is most likely a pic from the initial formation of the Ulster Div. and before the Division was fully equipped.

Yes, there were arms smuggled from Germany but there were also arms supplied from England and America. W.H. Kautt has written in his paper entitled "Ulster Vounteer Force Arms Smuggling & RIC Efforts to Combat It":

“The police had information about the Ulster Volunteer Force, but do not appear to have known the man responsible for the arms acquisition, Major Fred Crawford, who was already an experienced military ordnance officer, former ship’s engineer and arms smuggler.

His arms smuggling activities continued up to and beyond the Second South African War. There were two possible sources of arms in Ulster, legal and illegal. The RIC identified several firms in Ireland and Britain prepared to sell firearms and ammunition to the UVF and other Unionists legally. In October 1911, the Clerk to the Court of The Gunmakers Company, informed the Secretary of State for War, Lord Haldane, that ‘Small Arms have recently been imported from America in large quantities into Ireland’. In all forty-two cases of arms came into Dublin, Belfast, and Cork and, he noted, this ‘was not the first or only consignment’.

In Britain, Holloway & Naughton, the Midland Gun Company and the B.S.A. factory were all supplying the Ulstermen. In Dublin, the elite detective G Division of the Dublin Metropolitan Police (DMP), identified the primary arms sources there as three dealers: Kavanagh, of Dame St; Keegan, of Upper Ormond Quay; Parks & Sons, of the Coombe, and Henshaw & Co., of Christ Church Place. These firms received most of their arms from the United States. In some cases, the arms came from Hamburg to a firm with an office in Britain, such as Stevens Arms & Tool Company, on Grape Street in London, and then to Dublin.

In the Garvagh district of Londonderry, the Orange Lodge, having collected monies for a ceremonial cannon for Coleraine, decided instead to purchase rifles. They bought some unspecified type of Lee-Enfields and twenty-four .450calibre Martini-Henrys, along with ammunition for both through the Midland Gun Company in Liverpool. So, by 1912, the RIC had considerable information about inbound shipments of arms. The rifles were probably all chambered for the .303 calibre military ball round.”

[rob elliott]

Anneca,

The two photos are of Royal Irish Rifles, certainley Britsish Army, as are in all probability the rifles, the older Long Lee Enfield or Lee Metford of the which the army had a lot in store.

The Short Magazine Lee Enfield [sMLE] replaced the Long Lee .

There are many photos of newly recruited British Soldiers with these rifles before enough SMLEs' were available.

One of the myths around the Ulster Division is the that the old UVF rifles were used to train the men. There was insufficient ammunition to last more than a week of training.

Two milion rounds of ammo were supposed to have been brought in by Crawford. 12-13 thousand men of the Ulster Division doing rifle practice at 10-20 shots each it would soon go.

And having studied the UVF rifle and ammunition returns for 1915 it is clear the majority of the ammunition is stil available.

The ammunition was a variety of calibres [one of the UVFs logistical problems] so of no real use to the army.

The UVF special service sections did wear British Military style uniforms, but one of the things that gives it away as army as opposed to UVf as well as the badge in the 2nd picture is that the man in the middle has Sgt's stripes. The UVF did not use this ranking system.

The Britsih Government tracked Crawford from Germany back to British waters, why he was not stopped no one can answer. The Corrospondance of the British Embassy in Hamburg gives daily reports naming the ships involved.

Rob

[Murrough]

Thanks for clearing that up gentlemen and ladies, rifles would not be an area I would be familiar with, I do recall reading that the 36th did drill with the imported arms but I do not think it mentioned range practice.

[Anneca]

Rob and Murrough, thank you very much for your input and for the information. Rob, you are very good on rifles even though it is not your strong point. I can see your point about the ammunition not lasting long whilst training! I did not know the UVF had no ranking system - very astute of you to recognise the Sgt's stripes, therefore confirming they were the Royal Irish Rifles. Thank you, very much appreciated and you have answered my question.

Regards

Anne

[rob elliott]

Anne,

The UVF did have a rank system it was just not the one used by the Army, probably to ensure no confusion.

The armbands they wore would have various markings on them, one horizontal stripe, two, three etc which would indicate 'section leader' 'half section' etc with the Btn number and County Regiment name in the middle.

Officers would have red armbands and depending on ranking, there would be small circles, one or two.

Rob

[Anneca]

Thank you for the explanation Rob. I had wondered how a military organisation could function without a ranking system.

Regards

Anne

[max7474]

The RAF have been doing it for years or perhaps it is the other way around