Deductions for Burial Groundsheets

[MelPack]

When I was surfing the net I came across the following interesting feature on the personal war diary of Gunner Jack Halstead:

http://www.huntspost.co.uk/man/features/Wa...ries/Diary1.asp

In the diary entry for 24 August 1917, he recorded the following:

'Many dead lying outside the cemetery awaiting burial. A long line, all stitched up in their blankets. Also lines of ready dug graves. Not a cheerful sight.

Right to the end the Army had their last draw in - the price of a blanket and groundsheet was deducted from the money due to the soldier - and many a time a blanket was not used, but the price, you may be sure, was deducted from money due.'

I find it incredible that money would be deducted from the last wages of a soldier before the balance was sent to the next of kin. Does anyone have any further information on this squalid practice?

Thanks

Mel

[hmsk212]

Not the Great War I know, but also beyond belief, in the early years of World War Two, Merchant Seamen who were sunk were paid off as of the date of the sinking and were no longer entitled to wages. This meant that men who were sunk whilst with the Russian Convoys could spend up to 5 or 6 months in Russia living in extreme conditions whilst awaiting passage home without being paid at all.

Steve

[telaw]

A worse indignity. A guy in my unit shot himself through the stomach with an SMG and the cost of the two bullets was deducted from his final pay to NOK.

Tom

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

I find it incredible that money would be deducted from the last wages of a soldier before the balance was sent to the next of kin. Does anyone have any further information on this squalid practice?

Mel - at a stretch this would appear to be covered by the Regimental Debts Act, 1893, "Preferential charges" cl.2 pt(1) "Expenses of last illness and funeral" (payable from the estate that is).

But then the RDA is very long and complicated (as you'd expect it to be, being formulated by lawyers) and in section two there is a clause .. The actual and necessary expenses of the funeral, in the united Kingdom or the colonies, of a warrant officer, non-commissioned officer, or man, will be bourne by the public to such extent as may be provided for in the allowance regulations

France and Belgium dont qualify as colonies of course, but I cannot see any provision similar to the one above for a non-colonial or UK burial. I dont know what the allowance regulations say, but I have never seen anything in soldier's papers to indicate such deductions having been made. They do appear quite regularly in officers files where you see things like invoices for coffins being charged against the estate, rail fares (transport of the remains / coffin) etc etc - but I dont think I've ever seen those charges applied outside the UK to an officer deceased on active service.

Would be interested to hear of anything more definitive - regards - Tom

[Guest Pete Wood]

Not the Great War I know, but also beyond belief, in the early years of World War Two, Merchant Seamen who were sunk were paid off as of the date of the sinking and were no longer entitled to wages. This meant that men who were sunk whilst with the Russian Convoys could spend up to 5 or 6 months in Russia living in extreme conditions whilst awaiting passage home without being paid at all.

Steve

I believe this rule DID apply to Merchant Navy personnel in the Great War - and earlier times also.

The crew of the Titanic had their wages stopped when the White Star liner sank. Some of the First Class passenger survivors had a whip round for the sailors, which led to later claims that some male passengers had bribed the crew (and hence survived).

[CROONAERT]

Not the Great War I know, but also beyond belief,  in the early years of World War Two, Merchant Seamen who were sunk were paid off as of the date of the sinking and were no longer entitled to wages. This meant that men who were sunk whilst with the Russian Convoys could spend up to 5 or 6 months in Russia living in extreme conditions whilst awaiting passage home without being paid at all.

Steve

I believe this rule DID apply to Merchant Navy personnel in the Great War - and earlier times also.

It certainly did! Ask my Gt.(Gt.)Uncle who was torpedoed or sunk 3 times. He didn't get paid for much of his war!!!

Dave.

(Hell! - Just had a thought. Could he possibly be one of the last Merc.Marine veterans of the Great War still alive today? - he's never been listed in any of the newspaper articles about veterans - 102 this year!)

[shelley]

I am speechless!

which is rare for me!

Does anyone have a NOK receipt showing this?

What a memento of your loved one!

Shelley

[Raster Scanning]

It certainly did! Ask my Gt.(Gt.)Uncle who was torpedoed or sunk 3 times. He didn't get paid for much of his war!!!

Dave.

Dave.

Sounds like the model for Uncle Albert on Only Fools and Horses

[healdav]

Some years ago a Belgian policeamn was shot and kileld on duty. His widow received a bill from the Police for the reapir of the bullet hole in his tunic and the cleaning!

The regulations said that the uniform had to be returned in good repair, and it wasn't.

It goes on everywhere.

[Bombadier]

In the UK (& Eire) lifeboat service, the crew were only paid from the moment the boat hit the water, to the moment it left the water. the only exceptions were the engineer and coxwain. All training, boat maintenance etc was done in their own time.

This may have been changed by now.

Nigel

[Guest redrum]

This despicable practice was still going on in the Korean war. As recently related to me by a still cynical (and rightly so) old soldier who was out there. The forgotten war alright- except for those who fought and suffered there 1950-53.

Imagine how the deceased soldiers family felt!

[Paul Reed]

I am afraid this is a myth; soldiers next of kin were not charged for whatever their loved one was buried in. Anyone with half a knowledge of battlefield conditions in WW1 would realise this was impossible; half the time soldiers were not buried in anything but their uniform.

I would be happy to be corrected if anyone can show an official document that shows such a sum was deducted from a soldier's account.

[Burl]

Sorry to drag up this old thread but I was going to ask a question about burial blankets when I found this string. 

In answer to the above post, it does appear to have been an official practice. I quote from Last Post by Max Arthur page 37:

"..I had a letter from Lenny's mum. She said that Lenny had died 3 days later. He never got back to Blighty. He's buried in Bethune Town Cemetery . His mother received some money from the army -  but £1 was deducted for the blanket in which he was buried. ********. A pound for the blanket. How could they?"

Not only does it appear to have been a despicable practice but also a very expensive one.

 

 

[Terry_Reeves]

On 16/04/2024 at 13:07, Burl said:

Sorry to drag up this old thread but I was going to ask a question about burial blankets when I found this string. 

In answer to the above post, it does appear to have been an official practice. I quote from Last Post by Max Arthur page 37:

"..I had a letter from Lenny's mum. She said that Lenny had died 3 days later. He never got back to Blighty. He's buried in Bethune Town Cemetery . His mother received some money from the army -  but £1 was deducted for the blanket in which he was buried. ********. A pound for the blanket. How could they?"

Not only does it appear to have been a despicable practice but also a very expensive one.

 

 

Of course we only have a snippet of the letter and no actual copy of an official record that authorised such a change. Does Max Arthur follow up with an official  source authorise this? 
 TR

[Chasemuseum]

There is a series of army manuals with the official prices for various stores. I have a WW1 copy and no idea where it is. It will have the price for a blanket. I am sure it is much less than 1 GPB.

[Matlock1418]

1 hour ago, Chasemuseum said:

There is a series of army manuals with the official prices for various stores. I have a WW1 copy and no idea where it is. It will have the price for a blanket. I am sure it is much less than 1 GPB.

I have previously captured from GWF this list of Rates for Certain Articles of Clothing, Necessaries and Equipment

Image thanks to GWF [sorry I can't better attribute]

Blankets GS = 13s 6d @ 3/18

M

[303man]

When I was in the army we used to say they would charge double what it was worth, pay once for the one you lost and once for the one to replace it!

[Chasemuseum]

Thank-you.

13 shillings and 6 pence for a "blanket GS".  Frankly rather expensive but much less than 1 pound (twenty shillings).

If you go to Robert Graves "Goodbye to all that", prior to his discharge from the army he had a temporary posting in Ireland and a large number of troops passing through had been issued a second blanket as a temporary measure and there was a failure to gather these back to stores. He was very much afraid and concerned about the timing of his discharge that he would be held responsible for a couple of thousand missing blankets, for which he was financially responsible.

 

 

[Andrew Upton]

7 hours ago, 303man said:

When I was in the army we used to say they would charge double what it was worth, pay once for the one you lost and once for the one to replace it!

 

6 hours ago, Chasemuseum said:

...13 shillings and 6 pence for a "blanket GS".  Frankly rather expensive but much less than 1 pound (twenty shillings)...

 

Not that I personally believe that money was usually (or even regularly, if at all) charged for the cost of a burial blanket, but as 303man says it seems it wasn't uncommon for the military to charge double for replacing a lost item, at which point it becomes the figure of 27 shillings (and a supposed charge of £1 or 20 shillings doesn't seem quite so unbelievable). Perhaps this is where the origin comes from?

[303man]

If you remember back to the Falklands war there was uproar when some of those killed last pay statements were received, they had deductions for lost kit. A sleeping bag is one instance I remember.

[Chasemuseum]

I do not think that they could charge double for a lost item, my understanding is that they only charges the schedule amount. Certainly in the Australian Army in the 1970s when we submitted a "Loss & Damage" form, the form would be reviewed by the relevant grade of officer who decided whether it would be a unit or member expense. So if an item of clothing no longer fitted because you had grown out of it, it was usually a unit expense, and virtually everything else was always a member expense.

The point was our schedule of costs was pretty reasonable. On my sig course, all the radio equipment CES bags had broken press studs. On an exercise, someone on the course lost a gooseneck from the bag (you carried two different antennae with different goose necks, so one pair would be on the radio and the other in the bag). The officer in charge made the entire course spend 6 hours trying to find the missing goose neck (somewhere in about 5 acres of waist high grass). After that the course had to pay for it. $20 so $1 each.  Would have been much happier to have just paid the money up front and save the 6 hours. In those days $1 was two beers at the mess.

 

The complaint that items are "double the value" seems a pretty reasonable complaint about paying 13/6 for a blanket. The wool AIF tunics manufactured in the UK during WW1 were supplied  by the UK government to the Australian government for 10s each. They were pretty awful tunics, but is just seems wrong a blanket costing more than a wool tunic. Also I note that in the list above a SD Tunic is 17/9 so I do suspect that a "retail margin" has been added to the prices in the table to discourage people from losing anything.

[Chasemuseum]

I should add, that losing certain items could result in a "charge" (conduct prejudicing military discipline) and you would then be penalized with a fine as well as the cost of an item. If a bayonet was lost, the replacement cost was about $50, with the "L&D" being sent up to brigade command, and the standard fine was a further $50.

Or you could get a friend to go to a disposal store and buy an SLR bayonet for $30 and you would hand that in instead, with no one the wiser.

[GWF TEAM]

A reminder this is the Great War Forum and discussion of other conflicts is barred by virtue of the Forum Rules, this includes practices in armies outside this period.

This thread is based on yet another Great War myth which is unproven and, as noted twenty years ago, no evidence has ever been produced to substantiate the claim.

Since this thread was first posted we have access online to Soldiers Effects on Ancestry and the extensive work of Craig@ss002d6252  around those records show no financial deductions for funeral expenses were made to the entitlement.

The financial funeral arrangements for soldiers who died at home have been discussed on a number of occasions.

Please keep on topic

Thank you

 

 

[Burl]

I can offer no insight into whether or not this topic is a "myth" but 2 points I would make:

Referring to cost, I would suggest a "burial blanket" is a different item to a "blanket".

The words I quoted were from a soldier who was there at the time, he didn't need an official document, he'd received a letter telling him what had happened. O.k. he may have been a centenarian when interviewed with a flaky memory but he seemed very clear on that point. The asterisks quoted was actually an expletive, so the soldier seemed very certain to his memory.

[Matlock1418]

1 hour ago, Burl said:

I would suggest a "burial blanket" is a different item to a "blanket".

I do not recall ever seeing mention of a "Burial groundsheet" or a "Burial blanket" but I have noted many burials in groundsheets and burials in blankets [I would presume Blanket GS]

When later concentrating bodies the exhumation party would use a canvas sheet to bundle up the remains and a coffin would be provided.

Nor do I recall noting deductions for any of the above.

M