brimacombe Posted 15 August , 2012 Share Posted 15 August , 2012 Hi guys Have been away from the forum for some time due to numerous reasons. However, I wonder if anyone can help with the attached pictures... Many, many years ago I was given the pictured pistol (in slightly worse condition than it is now!). It came from the home of a veteran of the 6th Devons (he had spent the entire war with the unit in India and Mesopotamia etc). I had always assumed it to be a Bazaar-bought piece or something certainly unofficial (there was originally a lanyard ring which I unfortunately managed to break whilst cleaning it up a little). I have no idea at all what it is - and hope some of you will know in an instant what I have...IS it of WWI vintage or earlier (I wonder if it might just be Victorian), IS it British or from somewhere comepletely different. Any help would be, as always gratefully received - if anyone requires further/better photos dont hesitate to give me a shout. Thanks guys... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikB Posted 15 August , 2012 Share Posted 15 August , 2012 It looks like a cheap - probably Belgian - copy of a Webley Bulldog revolver. Its most likely dates are from the 1880s to the 1910s. It's quite possibly the sort of weapon a WW1 soldier could have come by in France or Belgium, though he'd've preferred a big Webley or pocket Browning auto if he could get them. The trigger is the wrong way round in the trigger guard, the cylinder-rotation pawl that locates in the hole in the rear of the trigger is presumably missing, and the hammer spur looks bent upward and forward of its usual position. It may still nominally be a firearm, and thus Section 5 in UK law, because it's most likely in a .32 or .38 calibre which is still current. I could make guesses at the significance of some of the markings, but that's all they'd be - others will know far better. Regards, MikB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 15 August , 2012 Share Posted 15 August , 2012 I believe FDC is Francois Dumoulin & C of Liege, Belgium. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 15 August , 2012 Share Posted 15 August , 2012 As above. Definitely Belgian as it is Liege proofed. Regards TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoppage Drill Posted 15 August , 2012 Share Posted 15 August , 2012 Definitely Belgian. Many of this sort were chambered for .320 British which is accepted as being obsolete, but it has the appearance of a heavier calibre - say .450. Can you remove the cylinder, and look for further markings, which may give the calibre either in conventional nomenclature, or possibly bore size ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikB Posted 15 August , 2012 Share Posted 15 August , 2012 Definitely Belgian. Many of this sort were chambered for .320 British which is accepted as being obsolete, but it has the appearance of a heavier calibre - say .450. Can you remove the cylinder, and look for further markings, which may give the calibre either in conventional nomenclature, or possibly bore size ? You're right, .320 (British) Revolver is on the Obsolete Calibres list - a little surprising that the interchangeable .32 Short Colt isn't. Regards, MikB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 15 August , 2012 Share Posted 15 August , 2012 Unfortunately the marks don't date it, the Liege mark was used from 1893-1968 and the crowned R 1894 - 1968. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apple Posted 16 August , 2012 Share Posted 16 August , 2012 A not particularly well made weapon which was a obsolescent design, with rather obscure markings, owned by someone who'd been to India... Perhaps made in the Khyber Pass as opposed to Liege :-/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikB Posted 16 August , 2012 Share Posted 16 August , 2012 A not particularly well made weapon which was a obsolescent design, with rather obscure markings, owned by someone who'd been to India... Perhaps made in the Khyber Pass as opposed to Liege :-/ Some of the worst guns ever made, as well as some of the best, have come out of Belgium - and large numbers of Bulldog copies were made there. Regards, MikB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apple Posted 16 August , 2012 Share Posted 16 August , 2012 Some of the worst guns ever made, as well as some of the best, have come out of Belgium - and large numbers of Bulldog copies were made there. Regards, MikB I'm not having a go at Belgium. Chips with yellowy mayonnaise, nice chocolate, that cherry beer the monks make with wild yeast, great country Belgium is. What I was getting at was while the Bulldog may have been a great pistol in its day, that day was 1880, not 1914. While I'm sure officers of the Great War carried all sorts of personal sidearms, I would imagine (and I'm not a subject expert on India of that period) that an oldish design which had been a great commercial success would be exactly the type of weapon that gunsmiths in the Khyber Pass would be banging out... If indeed they had gunsmiths there then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikB Posted 16 August , 2012 Share Posted 16 August , 2012 I'm not having a go at Belgium. Chips with yellowy mayonnaise, nice chocolate, that cherry beer the monks make with wild yeast, great country Belgium is. What I was getting at was while the Bulldog may have been a great pistol in its day, that day was 1880, not 1914. While I'm sure officers of the Great War carried all sorts of personal sidearms, I would imagine (and I'm not a subject expert on India of that period) that an oldish design which had been a great commercial success would be exactly the type of weapon that gunsmiths in the Khyber Pass would be banging out... If indeed they had gunsmiths there then. Hey, I wasn't having a go at the Belgians either - and without the mass of backstreet gunsmiths they had in late Victorian and Edwardian times, working at *all* imaginable levels of skill and quality, they might not have developed the level of expertise they've certainly shown from early 20thC onwards. But there have been some execrable Belgian revolvers, worse than the OP's piece. I don't really know when the Kyber Pass gunsmiths began to produce passable copies of European weapons - in Kipling's late Victorian times they were still using muzzle-loading 'Jezails', or Sniders and Martinis sold out of service or captured. Economically one would guess that the copyist expertise began to develop as the availability of European weapons declined, and before the influx of cheap AKs. I believe there've been occasional fairly recent attempts to replicate European markings, but I doubt they were doing that with any accuracy any time around WW1 - unless of course anybody knows different? Regards, MikB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoppage Drill Posted 16 August , 2012 Share Posted 16 August , 2012 Calling it a "Bulldog" copy is, I think not quite right. It seems to be a copy of the RIC No2. This had a metal cap to the butt grip rather than the full birdshead grip associated with Bulldogs. The Belgians called such copies "Constabularys." Does it look as though it has ever had a lanyard ring, Shawn ? Can you post photographs of the front and rear flat faces of the cylinder, removed from frame, and a right side picture so we can see the loading gate please ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikB Posted 16 August , 2012 Share Posted 16 August , 2012 Calling it a "Bulldog" copy is, I think not quite right. It seems to be a copy of the RIC No2. This had a metal cap to the butt grip rather than the full birdshead grip associated with Bulldogs. The Belgians called such copies "Constabularys." It's true the grip shape is reminiscent of RIC models, but the size of the trigger guard as compared to the rest of the piece suggests a calibre a good deal smaller than .450. I was perhaps being a bit loose in my description, but I think its resemblance to either model is pretty much equally inexact. Regards, MikB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoppage Drill Posted 16 August , 2012 Share Posted 16 August , 2012 Commercial No 2's were made in .320 and .380, so maybe. Hard to get scale from these photos, but the Liege crowned cartouche proof mark is a standard size, and I tried to judge the chamber diameters from that. It's why I'm asking for more pics of the cylinder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brimacombe Posted 17 August , 2012 Author Share Posted 17 August , 2012 Hi Guys Thanks for your responses so far... Really pleased the piece has generated some healthy debate... I will endeavour to take a few more (better quality photo's later today). Stoppage Drill - yes, there was a lanyard ring which, unfortunately, broke away when I was 'cleaning' it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoppage Drill Posted 17 August , 2012 Share Posted 17 August , 2012 Hi Guys Stoppage Drill - yes, there was a lanyard ring which, unfortunately, broke away when I was 'cleaning' it... Sorry - I see you mentioned that in your first post. I do see it as an 1890-ish Liege "Constabulary" based closely on the No 2 RIC Webley. It looks like the hammer spur has been battered out of shape. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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