S.P. Gillespie again

[pierssc]

Another picture from the Gillespie family album on which I would be grateful for any thoughts.

There isn't much to go on here. The picture is dated 1915 in the album, and SPG is standing outside the same building as in another photograph, also dated 1915, but annotated "Burton Lodge" which is probably in Edinburgh. In the other picture he is wearing a smarter version of the same uniform (tartan kilt, sporran, leather belt with snake-type clasp, and swagger stick). In this one he wears a khaki kilt cover, and a web belt. He is facing the same way in both photos, so unfortunately his cap badge is not visible in either. On his epaulette is what appears to be an oval unit badge, possibly the one which we identified as most likely being Edinburgh University OTC; I can't get any better detail from either photo. Both pictures are small, faded, and I suspect weren't taken on a very good camera in the first place. In both photos there is what appears to be a small badge in the form of a bar with what appears to be writing on it surmounted by a Crown, worn above his right breast pocket. In this photo only, he wears what appears to be a plaited lanyard over his left shoulder.

What is likely to be the significance of the badge and lanyard? and is this more likely to show SPG in the uniform of the OTC unit, or as a private in the 9th Royal Scots?

Many thanks

Piers

Edited to show close-up of upper body

[EDWARD1]

The badge is the Imperial Service Brooch issued to Territorials who agreed to serve overseas

Eddie

[pierssc]

Ah! Thanks Eddie. So it looks like the Edinburgh University OTC....

[Old Owl]

Ah! So it looks like the Edinburgh University OTC....

This would be extremely doubtful because an OTC was attached to the school or University and as such would not come under the Territorials. An OTC was often affiliated to a British Army Regiment, although I am not sure if this was always the case, and as such would not be entitled to wear an I.S.B. until they had formerly enlisted into a Territorial Bn

and, of course, had signed to serve overseas on active service.

The picture does not appear to be of an OTC cadet--but then I could be mistaken!!

Robert

Edit: The photo looks more like an o/r in a Royal Scots Territorial Bn--which would explain the elaborate shoulder title: T/9/Royal Scots.

The Lanyard generally was attached to a whistle worn in the top L.H.pocket.

[pierssc]

Hi Robert

Could be, the shoulder badge certainly looks as if it might be more elaborate than the OTC one.

I just wondered whether the Edinburgh University OTC might have been one of those units which acted as a feeder for other regiments. I was reading about the Inns of Court OTC which seems to have been part of the TF.

[IPT]

I'm probably covering old ground, but his medal card shows 9th Royal Scots prior to his commission in the Gordon Highlanders.

[pierssc]

Yes, as per my initial post, I'm trying to establish whether this is likely to show him in the Edinburgh OTC or the Royal Scots (or for that matter as Robert has suggested, a Royal Scots Territorial batallion).

We identified him in a what looks like it was a photo of some Edinburgh University OTC last week.

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=182980

. It's not mentioned on his MIC, nor on his biog from the Watsonian War record, but then neither are the Territorials!

[IPT]

I hesitate to ask, but wouldn't his commission in the LG have stated an OTC?

REGULAR FORCES.

The undermentioned non-commissioned!

officers and men to be temporary Second

Lieutenants. Dated 29th August, 1915 : —

War Office, September 1915,

The Gordon Highlanders.

Private S. P. Gillespie, from 9th Battalion,

The Royal Scots (Lothian Regiment).

http://www.london-ga...9307/pages/9442

[pierssc]

Well, he was a Private soldier in the 9th Royal Scots, and was commissioned into the Gordons, so I don't think the LG would have mentioned any mob he had been in prior to that.

One thing I do wonder about is whether it might possibly be one of SPG's brothers. It looks like the same guy in all the photos, but I haven't got IDs of the others.

Old Owl, without presuming on your time too much.... could you possibly have another look at the Watsonian War Record and see if there are any Gillespie brothers with a mention of Edinburgh or St Andrews University OTCs or any Territorials? The brothers were: John D Gillespie born c1890; George A. born c1893; Andrew E born c1896, and Douglas N. born c1898. Interestingly, all of them appear to have joined up and all won the MC (according to a newspaper clipping). Please don't trouble to copy out all their entries. I just wonder whether the picture of the OTC crowd might have possibly been of a younger brother post 1916, which could mean that the sergeant, colour sergeant or whatever he was, might have been wearing a wound stripe!

[Old Owl]

Hi Piers,

I have just checked the Watsonian War Record and there are actually 4 Gillespie brothers:

Douglas Victor Gillespie, born 1897, joined the RAVC and thence to the RAF as 2/Lt. He was shot down by Richthoven and killed 6/4/18. (There is a photo of him in the book.)

George Armstrong Gillespie, born 1894, served in the RSG? Lieut., France and Italy, M.C.

John Marchbank Gillespie, born ?, Edin. Univ., M.B., Ch.B., 1911. RAMC, Capt, M.C., MID x 2.

Samuel Percy Gillespie, born 1892, -----.

It looks like J.M.G. could be a possibility for the E.U.O.T.C., no mention of E.U. for any of the others, although D.V.G. was training to be a vet in 1915/16 prior to joining up.

If you PM me your email I could send you a copy of the page with more details than this precis and also a copy of the photo of D.V.G.

Hope this helps, Robert

It looks like three won the M.C. but there is no sign of Andrew E.G. here and a few incorrect initials!!?

Edited 8 August , 2012 by old owl

[pierssc]

Many thanks Robert, will PM you as it will be useful to have the details of the others - may help to put some other names to faces.

George Armstrong Gillespie shows up on the London Gazette - Reserve Cavalry, attached Northamptonshire Yeomanry. Charged a machine gun from 30 yards in Italy in October 1918. Prevented bridge being blown up. Survived. http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/31680/supplements/15335 !

You're right on Douglas' initial - my mistake when reading an old census. So that was him, eh? Not being direct relatives (SPG married my grandfather's sister) I don't have much info on the family. I got the 5 brothers bit from the attached cutting, as confirmed by 1901 and 1911 censuses. Maybe the other brother - Andrew - didn't go to John Watson's and/or didn't provide details for the record? Or maybe one shouldn't believe all one reads in the papers

Unfortunately the photo she was taking isn't in the albums, as far as I can see.

Interesting thing is that that's 3 brothers accounted for now, and they don't look terribly similar. How to find John....