Machine Guns

[Peter Beckett]

After reading the very informative thread on "Machine Guns Why not more", I am interested to know some more technical details, etc

Link :

http://1914-1918.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=17718

1. Vickers MG - Rate of fire

2. Vickers MG - Set up time

3. Vickers MG - time of firing for each belt of ammo

4. Vickers MG - Range of kill

5. Lewis MG - Rate of fire

6. Lewis MG - Set up time

7. Lewis MG - time of firing for each drum of ammo

8. Lewis MG - Range of kill

9. Total crew for Vickers MG

10. Total crew for Lewis MG

Peter

[303man]

From the notes of Cpl K C White 4th Bn East Surrey Regt 22 Aug 1916

Lecture by the Commandant

Machine Gun Tactics

Here I extract from one and a half pages of notes

LEWIS Machine gun took 20 seconds to come into action, fired 179 rounds and 8 hits recorded

VICKERS mounted on light tripod , came into action in 25 seconds fired 105 rounds and had 4 hits

Vickers on Mk4 Tripod came into action in 50 seconds fired 190 rounds and recorded 9 hits

his footnote says standard time allowed was 1 minute

He lists the vickers rate of fire as 500 rds per minute. but its utmost rate of fire on service can be stated as 300 rds per minute

He states Lewis guns are mainly used to support the infantry in attack distroying enemy machine guns.

So not from a reference book off the shelf but from the coal face so to speak.

[Peter Beckett]

303man,

fantastic and thanks for that info.

Peter

[Broznitsky]

Hmmm, for the Lewis, that's 4 pans in 40 seconds. But only 8 hits? I wonder what the range was?

[lassuy]

For an excellent book on the subject, try Bruce's Machineguns Of World War One (Winslow & Greene publishers, if I recall correctly). He actually test fires each of the guns he describes, and rates them as to their usability. Great color photos as well.

Rod

[303man]

In theory you should be able to fire 10.63 pans in a minute at the rate of 500 rds per min the Lewes could fire up to 600 rds a min

4 pans in 40 seconds is very achievable.

[Peter Beckett]

Regarding the low number of hits per number of rounds.

Certainly the range would be nice to know as I, too thought the hit rate was a bit low. The other thing I suppose is the spread of fire due to type of barrel, rifling, if any, wear on the bore of the barrel, linear expansion of barrel due to heat and last but not least, the shape and size of the target.

I was also wondering whether the Lewis influenced the characteristics of the Bren, which was extremely accurate whether in single shot or MG operation and didn't have the "spray" effect.

Thanks to all for some very interesting info.

Peter

[petrick]

as a lewis man myself firing four mags wouldnt be a problem if the number 2 would change the mags. Seeing the mentioned 8 hits means that the rounds were fired in one sequal. that is 47 rounds in one go.

knowing that the lewis gun then throws the barrel upwards and hitting anything but the target makes for 8 hits count. lewis gunners shoot in 2second motions as to redirect aim.

iff they would have fired like this they surely would have a better hit range

coo-ee

patrick

[Arnie]

Peter

Can I try an answer your question in more detail;

1. Vickers rate of Fire 600 rpm cyclic. However there were three rates of fire;

a. Normal = 4 second 20 round burst, 8 second pause

b. Rapid = 4 second 20 round burst, 2 second pause.

c. Swinging traverse = Gun loose on its tripod and used in hose

fashion, firing a belt of 250 rounds. Belts could not joined

together to make an endless belt

2. Vickers time to set up the gun - from the command 'action' a little as five seconds to bring the gun into action. But this depend on type of terrain and distance to firing point.

3 Vickers belt was a 250 round manufactured in cotton with brass rivets to give rigidity. Belt came preloaded some times, but mainly they had to be loaded by using loose rounds and a hand machine.

4. Vickers range depended on the type of ammunition fired;

a. .303 VII Z rifle ammo would have maximum effective range of just over

2500 yds.

b. The more powerful .303 VIII Z would fire up to 4500 yds, At this range

of course they would probably be shooting off a map and not by line

of sight

5. Lewis LMG Cyclic rate of 600 RPM However gun fired in Bursts of up to

6 rounds per burst to be effective

6. Lewis LMG could be brought into action in seconds with the assistance

of the No 2

7. Lewis LMG fired drums of 47 rounds in ground role but aircraft and Anti

aircraft had 96 round drums.

8. The Vickers gun team consisted of six men No1 fired the Gun, No2

assisted No3, No maintained the immediate use ammunition the other

three helped Bring up the Ammunition and load the belts if necessary.

9 The Lewis gun team was 3 men No1 fired the gun, No2 assisted No1,

No 3 helped carry the Ammunition drums often extra men would help

with the ammunition often a team of 8.

10. Lewis LMG effective range about 400 yds depending on size of

target.

The discussion about the number of hits would probably be at a range of 600 yds both weapons were fully automatic designed to produce a cone of fire as the rounds travelled through the air and subsequently a beaten zone around the target area. Although automatics, the first shot would inevitably be accurate, the remainder would spread giving the cone of fire The Vickers was an area weapon especially at extreme range. All the factors previously mentioned would affect accuracy.

No man could control a Lewis Gun fired to expend the Drum.

Arnie

[Broznitsky]

Petrick, thanks for that, and your excellent photo.

Arnie, thank you too for the detail. Can you just clarify your last statement: "No man could control a Lewis Gun fired to expend the Drum. "

Peter in Vancouver

[303man]

The Standard time to Load the Vickers was 5 Seconds that is No 2 feed starter tab into feed block No 1 grab and pull at the same time cocking the gun twice and putting his hand back on the handels and sitting up No 2 raising his hand

to actually mount and load the gun standard time allowed was 25 second the previos post 5 seconds to bring the gun into action is nigh impossible.

Like So, I spent a week training the recruits in the photo how to operate and fire the Vickers including setting up from the word of command Action to Load So I am fully up to speed on what is doable with the vickers and setting up the Tripod mounting the gun and loading is not acheivable never, ever in 5 seconds!!!!!

[Peter Beckett]

Petrick, Arnie and 303man,

again thanks for the continuing great info being given. I was wondering about the time and had concluded that the 5 seconds must be from after setting up on the tripod for the Vickers. I watched a "replica" battle at the Hop Farm last year and there were 3 british soldiers setting up a Vickers in a field and by the time they set up and commenced firing they were over run by the "enemy"

Peter

[carninyj]

With regards to the 'cone' & 'beaten zone', is it true that experienced MG crews could at long range overlap fire to produce a broad and deep beaten zone that was murder for the enemy to cross?

Carninyj

[303man]

An Example at 1500 yds the beaten zone is 10 yds wide and 170yds long The machine gunner after much training knows the required strength to tap on the traversing handles to displace the line of sight by about 15' (Minutes) This being the amount which is calculated will cause successive beaten zones to overlap slightly at all ranges. This tap is called the requlation 15' tap

Say 2 guns are lined up on a target at 1500 and ordered Traversing right and left 5 taps

No 1 gun traverses left to right and No 2 traverses right to left an area is covered approx 50 yds by 170 they crews can then be ordered up 100 and basicly the carry on doing the same lifting the beaten zone 100 yds at a time.

The best and safest effect for friendly troops is to have the guns on a flank correctly sighted the whole of a units frontage could be covered by MGs creating an almost inpenatrable barrier.

And this is what the Germans did so well on the Somme they basicly had everywhere covered by flanking MG fire in some cases look at the Trench maps the ground the british were attacking was triangulated by German Maxims as they stated at the time it was like cutting down ripe corn.

[Arnie]

machine gun

Pretty good .3303man, Basically nearly every thing you said is correct as per the Vickers Medium Machine Gun Training Phamphlet 1951.

I too was a MMg gunner serving in a MMG platoon as a No1, Section Comd. Pl Serjeant and finally Pl Comd so I too am nearly up to speed.

Couple of points however;

A MMG section could approach march a proposed MMG position Carrying the gun as follows - The No1 would carry the tripod with the legs in the firing position. No2 would carry the Gun with a belt loaded and draped. for extra safety a peg could be place across the thumb pieces and safety. No three would come up with the condenser can and extra ammo Down would go the tripod on would go the Gun laid onto the target and fired.

Guns always fire in unison as a section and apart from an emergency never traverse in different directions.

The best position for Defensive fire is defelade for enfilade fire. Often difficult to achieve on the Western front

.The Photo of the MMG in a row intrigues me

All the guns are missing Flash eliminators and the Canvas jacket for the barrel.

All the soldier are wearing DPM pattern Combat kit not issued until 1970. The MMG went out of service in 1964/65 In fact my platoon were the last to fire it in anger in Borneo in 1964. The MMG was replaced by the GPMG.

Regarding Control of of the Lewis gun when firing a sustained Burst. It is impossible to keep the gun starts to fire. The vibration of the cartridge explosion and the movement of the working parts cause the Gun to jump up and the their is a tendace for the tripod to 'walk' remember the Gun would very accurate for the first shot and accurate maybe for the second but after that the shot spread in a wider and wider cone and beaten zone. Therefore Fire short Burst for maximum accuracy.

[303man]

Guns always fire in unison as a section and apart from an emergency never traverse in different directions.

The best position for Defensive fire is defelade for enfilade fire. Often difficult to achieve on the Western front

.The Photo of the MMG in a row intrigues me

All the guns are missing Flash eliminators and the Canvas jacket for the barrel.

All the soldier are wearing DPM pattern Combat kit not issued until 1970. The MMG went out of service in 1964/65 In fact my platoon were the last to fire it in anger in Borneo in 1964. The MMG was replaced by the GPMG.

My info is from the 1931 Small Arms Manuals there the details for traversing do actualy describe guns traversing in different directions and also describes inward traversing where the two gus pick point of aim at each end of the target they then traverse in towards each other slightly more than half a target and back.

The picture is very modern taken on 2002 the guns were taken from museums all over the country, the Pattern Room, Royal Armouries Infantry museum Warminster for the 80th anniversary of the disbandment of the Machine Gun Corps

some were WW1 dated Barrel wraps and Flash hiders were not used then so to be contempary we removed them.

I had to learn everything from scratch to teach recruits not yet finished training how to use the Vickers big learning curve for me being used to the 7.62 Bren GPMG and SA80

[carninyj]

Thanks for that reply .303man.

It was most interesting and really rather puts the discussion of how many hits can be got from a belt, etc into context. That kind of accuracy relates only to rifles, snipers, etc. A MG is a different weapon and served/es an entirely different purpose.

Regards

carninyj

[NIGEL]

I always thought the machine gun had 2 purposes initially and the same i think applies today

To keep the enemies heads down so our own troops can advance get into position and attack with out encountering fire from the enemy.

To wipe out any advancing troops which enter an area designated to be sprayed by machine gun fire and the idea was to entice the enemy into that area so they encounter multiple casualties

[Arnie]

303man

That explains every thing. I noticed that most of the guns were WW2 and post models of the gun, not the old corrugated jackets of the WW1 always issued a DP only

The traversing you refer to was called gun control in my day, in that after the Fire order had been given each gun decided on it own point of aim.

Under normal engagements the Guns would always fire in unison to bring down maximum weight of fire on to the target.

I suppose you taught 'On the spot indicated in that direction action' of course never used in action.

There were four types of fire for the Machine Guns they were:

Defensive, Offensive, Harassing and Propolectic, All could be pre recorded and remember a lot of the fire missions could be indirect were the Gunners firing over obstacles and other targets they couldn't see.

Defensive and offensive speak for themselves. Harassing would be used to engage areas such a administrative or routes up to the front line. Propolectic would be used to engage targets that could hide an enemy or even just to deny them use of that particular spot.

[jhill]

Thank you everyone for a most informative thread.

My only contribution is to point out the scheme used during the Passchendaele show in November, 1917. Three quarters or more of the Vickers guns were used in "barrage" batteries; the rest as "mobile" batteries (taken forward in the advance) or "sniping" batteries (presumably laid visually on specific targets).

The barrage guns were part of the creeping artillery barrage, leading the 18 pounders by a few hundred yards at a rate of 100 yards every eight minutes. The guns traversed two or three degrees (I forget which!). After about two hours, the barrage rested on an "S.O.S." line.

Batteries were located within 2500 yards of the eventual S.O.S. line, which meant they were generally at least 1000 yards behind the infantry start line. Each gun typically fired about 7000 rounds during the barrage phase, which must be compared with the rates of fire we have read earlier in this thread.

The gunners' reports complained about the necessity of loading belts at the battery positions. Not only was it impossible to produce clean belts in the muck, but the concentration of men to load the belts caused unnecessarily heavy casualties.

[303man]

7000 rds about 90kg of brass treble whats under this gun. It needs shoveling away. There is a classic photo in the Book Grand Old Lady of No Mans Land with a vickers crew giving supporting fire for the Rhine crossing they are surrounded by empty ammunition cans and used belts.