help needed with bayonet markings

[sawdoc34]

[sawdoc34]

Bloody thing didnt let me write owt after had uploaded the pics-

NCO M95- JRI over 364

Werndl- 88R over 331

Ersatz- 28.LR

Cheers in advance,

Aleck

5.280

[shippingsteel]

NCO M95- JRI over 364

Werndl- 88R over 331

Ersatz- 28.LR.5.280

Not sure about the NCO bayonet markings - most probably an Austrian mark but could also be a later postwar mark.?

The Werndl is most likely just the 88th Regiment of the pre-war Austrian Empire military, as these are earlier bayonets.

The Ersatz is marked in the Imperial German style so my guess is the 28th Landwehr Regiment but not certain of that.

Cheers, S>S

[trajan]

Nice markings on that ersatz! They are not that common... Now all you have to do is find out where that regiment was raised and when, and where it served!

Cheers,

Trajan

EDIT: IF it is 28 Landwehr regiment, then http://wiki-de.genealogy.net/LIR_28 has it as a Rhineland unit and split between Aachen, Koln and Neuss in August 1914. BUT this and some other German sources suggest that the correct abbreviation for this unit would be 28 LIR or LIR 28 and not 28 LR...

[shippingsteel]

BUT this and some other German sources suggest that the correct abbreviation for this unit would be 28 LIR or LIR 28 and not 28 LR...

But not when stamped on bayonets. The Germans seldom used the letter 'I' in their marking of weaponry, and when it was it usually took the shape of a J.

Cheers, S>S

[der5997]

Hello, I'm new here; and if you will allow, I'd like to open a fresh "help needed" within this bayonet markings topic.

My reason for joining is to research a Lithgow bayonet donated to our local museum; specifically to determine the date of manufacture. There is a D^D mark with 5 beneath it on the quillion, which tells me (thanks to the Forum) Australian Military District 5 = Western Australia.

The Examiner's Marks have the A inside a star either side of the Bending Mark, and small A inside a star above Roman numeral for 3 Those two are topped by ↑

http://www.lawranceordnance.com/information/bayonets/australian/manufacturers_markings.php tells me that this is 1921.

However the Manufacturer's Mark on the face of the blade, while it has LITHGOW and the shield with 1907

1

in it topped by A in a star has 7 (= July?) and 7(?)21 instead of the 1921 that this formum has led me to expect.

BTW, the quillion is not a "Hookie". There are no marks (that I've found) on the pommel.

Any help you may be able to give in dating this bayonet would be appreciated. Since it came to our museum in Nova Scotia via a "dumpster diver" outside of Halifax, I'm guessing a WWII use by an Australian unit, and thence a souvenir swap. The donor thought it might be WWI - I'd like some clarification if possible.

I have some cleaninig and conservation questions. On which part of the Forum should I ask those?

Many thanks.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

der5997,

Welcome to the Forum.

The shield mark on the blade ricasso with ' 1907 ' is not the bayonet's date of production, that 1907 mark refers to the model of the bayonet, with it being a ' Pattern 1907 ' bayonet.

The stamped date mark below the shield mark refers to the bayonet's date of manufacture, which looks like July 1921.

Regards,

LF

[der5997]

Good evening, and thanks for your reply LF. I was able this afternoon to get the agreement of the donor of our museum’s Lithgow to remove the unfortunate tarry old electrical tape which had at some stage been wrapped around the handle. This has revealed (besides some damage to wood of the handle) a series of further markings. These raise a number of questions about the production date (and I do acknowledge that this is a 1907 pattern Lithgow) The questions arise because I came upon this forum through a Google search that led to the thread 1916 lithgow bayonet In that thread member “shippingsteel” from Australia posted

The D/\D mark is a version of the Department of Defense symbol, while the 5 signifies the 5th Military District ie. Western Australia. I think these markings are the later ones for WW2 but am not really sure how the timeline works for those. Most of the early bayonets are found with something like "5th M.D. 23893" marked on the crossguard.

The 38383 serial number on the pommel is for the rifle the bayonet was first matched too from the factory, and sounds about right for a 1916 bayonet. The Lithgows rolled over from 99999 into the A prefix serial numbers sometime during 1918.

And added

Many of the Lithgow bayonets with Great War dates saw service during WW2, while the AIF took mostly British made bayonets into action in France etc, as they never had quite enough Lithgows ready made to go around…….I've found a reference from Skennerton for your D/\D marking, apparently it was used from the late 1920's onwards so that’s why its found more in WW2 stuff. It replaced the original letter D with the small arrow inside

Later in the same thread member jscott asked ...." One other question that has just occurred to me on this topic (1907 bayonets) is in relation to the regimental markings. From what I've seen the vast majority of 1907s are not marked at all (other than the standard date, crown, bend test etc), and the majority of the ones I have seen with regimental markings are for battalions that remained in reserve (and often stayed in the UK). Is this an accurate observation or is this just coincidence? Were the English produced 1907s that saw action in France and elsewhere usually regimentally marked, or were they often rushed out sans markings (a bit like the German bayonets which seemed to drop the markings after the early war period)?"

…this has me wondering about our museum’s 1907 Pattern Lithgow, because it has the following markings:

on the pommel

stamped into the wood

on the top of the handle spine,

and this insignia on the underside of the spine

Can you identify the insignia? Is it regimental? If so, how does all this square with shippingsteel’s observations quoted above? I’m wondering

• what the 84592 is doing on the pommel of a 1920’s Lithgow if shippingsteel is correct in his remark that “The 38383 serial number on the pommel is for the rifle the bayonet was first matched too from the factory, and sounds about right for a 1916 bayonet. The Lithgows rolled over from 99999 into the A prefix serial numbers sometime during 1918.”
  
• Why was a 1920’s era bayonet being matched numerically to a specific rifle – and given a number pre 1918, that is before the roll-over with the A suffix?
  
• Why is 1920’s bayonet given an insignia (if that's what the symbol on the underside of the spine is) at all?
  
• What is the meaning of the R – 53 → on the spine?
  

Also folks, any suggestions as to how to clean tarry deposits from the wood of the handle would also be appreciated. Thus far I’ve used “Goo Gone” to good, but not totally satisfactory, effect.

Cheers

[shippingsteel]

Can you identify the insignia? Is it regimental? If so, how does all this square with shippingsteel’s observations quoted above?

The P1907 bayonet photos which you are posting show an example of Australian military surplus that has seen many years of service ie. 'its really been through the mill'.!

It was made in 1921 at Lithgow and looks to have had the serial number A85492 applied to match it with its SMLE rifle. The A has been nearly ground off during the refurb.

The late A prefix serial number would be correct for the 1921 date of manufacture. It also has later period markings like the arrow on the ricasso, and the R 53 on the tang.

This indicates it has been through another refurbishment which was done circa the Korean War. The Australia marking on the grips show it was sold into the US as surplus.

So overall a very common example of an Australian interwar bayonet that most likely saw some service during WW2 and later. The symbol on the tang is a new one on me.?

EDIT. My memory just kicked in regarding that symbol shown below.! It's a Lithgow inspection marking from the early 20's - FH stands for F.E. Hart, an inspector at Lithgow.

Cheers, S>S

[Lancashire Fusilier]

der5997,

Here are some photographs of my Enfield Pattern 1907 Sword Bayonet with the Hooked Quillion, showing the early Australian Land Service ( small arrow within a capital ' D ' ) mark on the pommel.

LF

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Lieut. Frederick Edward Hart from Randwick, N.S.W. an Army Instructor, was appointed Army Inspector at the Lithgow factory in August 1916.

His Inspector's ' FEH ' mark is also seen on Lithgow rifles.

LF

[der5997]

Gentlemen, many thanks. This is the sort of detail that will help enormously in interpreting the P1907 to our museum visitors, as well (and especially, since we can write more there,) on-line.

We like to tell a story in our interpretive signage, and since this is a "scrap" or surplus item with no local personal history, bringing FE Hart - and his heart monogram (I'm presuming) intot he picture gives the weapon a "human touch".