tn.drummond Posted 2 August , 2012 Share Posted 2 August , 2012 I've already listed this enquiry under Units and Formations (http://1914-1918.inv...opic=183023&hl=) together with some specifics about location but unfortunately its sunk like a plumb. Could anybody please shed light on what the shoulder embellishment is on the uniform of the Gordon Sergeant to the left. I think it could be some unit insignia but can find nothing referenced and it is also rather large. Help ! If any brave bodies with specialist Gordons' knowledge would like a dabble at the initial enquiry in the above link then I'd be indebted. Thanks Suddery Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Owl Posted 2 August , 2012 Share Posted 2 August , 2012 It almost looks like some sort of flap to protect the shoulders? although I cannot think that it would be official. I am also pretty certain that it is not a flash--but then again I could be wrong--I've never seen or should I say noticed anything quite like it before. We need a uniform buff to help out here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tn.drummond Posted 2 August , 2012 Author Share Posted 2 August , 2012 Many thanks OO, at least we've resolved it's not just me flummoxed. S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CGM Posted 2 August , 2012 Share Posted 2 August , 2012 It sort of looks to me as though his mum has inserted some strips of not quite matching material to extend his sleeves as he has grown out of them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tn.drummond Posted 2 August , 2012 Author Share Posted 2 August , 2012 It must be for some purpose...He's big and a Sergeant and this was taken on 10/7/16 in a village not too far from the front line. I wondered if it supported a larger device on the back of his jacket for the leap forwards on the 1st. All looks a bit scruffy near the armpit, as if twisted, its not webbing, too thin (and no, it's not a parachute !!!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon92 Posted 2 August , 2012 Share Posted 2 August , 2012 I have not seen this shoulder embellishment either. Am also inclined to think that this is a field improvisation, either a repair or a way to lengthen the sleeve from the top. There is some doubt in my mind that these are 4th Gordons. In the photo posted on this thread there is a hint of a shoulder title worn by the sergeant on the right with a mustache; it appears to be a straight single line and not the T|4|GORDON that would be expected. Or, he may be wearing no shoulder brass at all, and I am over-interpreting. With no cap badges, regimental anonymity may have been ordered. The LCpl in the second photo of your linked thread is wearing a shoulder title, and it is not T|4|GORDON. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Sweeney Posted 2 August , 2012 Share Posted 2 August , 2012 I think you may actually be looking at 5th BN QOCH not Gordon's. That Battalion had a Yellow arch at top of both arms. The Garter flashes on your original post do not look Gordon. Those were two ribbons with a a single bell on each ribbon. The type pictured were common to Royal High, A&SH, and Cameron's. No significance in jackets between Simplified, Normal SD and Cutaways. Joe Sweeney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A-D Posted 2 August , 2012 Share Posted 2 August , 2012 Ask here as well some one may know. Regards, A http://www.facebook.com/#!/groups/135873979785987/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tn.drummond Posted 3 August , 2012 Author Share Posted 3 August , 2012 I have not seen this shoulder embellishment either. Am also inclined to think that this is a field improvisation, either a repair or a way to lengthen the sleeve from the top. There is some doubt in my mind that these are 4th Gordons. In the photo posted on this thread there is a hint of a shoulder title worn by the sergeant on the right with a mustache; it appears to be a straight single line and not the T|4|GORDON that would be expected. Or, he may be wearing no shoulder brass at all, and I am over-interpreting. With no cap badges, regimental anonymity may have been ordered. The LCpl in the second photo of your linked thread is wearing a shoulder title, and it is not T|4|GORDON. Appears to be some mis-understanding. I meant 'Four' Gordons and not 4th Gordons. Apologies if this is down to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tn.drummond Posted 3 August , 2012 Author Share Posted 3 August , 2012 I think you may actually be looking at 5th BN QOCH not Gordon's. That Battalion had a Yellow arch at top of both arms. The Garter flashes on your original post do not look Gordon. Those were two ribbons with a a single bell on each ribbon. The type pictured were common to Royal High, A&SH, and Cameron's. Joe Sweeney Thanks Joe this is the sort of fresh insight I was hoping for. I'll hunt around to see if a QOCH unit was in the area and see if I can chase down the yellow flash (insignia is my primary interest). Will post tonight if I make any progress. Suddery Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tn.drummond Posted 3 August , 2012 Author Share Posted 3 August , 2012 Ask here as well some one may know. Regards, A http://www.facebook....35873979785987/ Thanks for the suggestion but I don't access Facebook (too worried what my children are posting on it). Could you let me know what content / topic is please ? S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon92 Posted 3 August , 2012 Share Posted 3 August , 2012 I think you may actually be looking at 5th BN QOCH not Gordon's. That Battalion had a Yellow arch at top of both arms. The Garter flashes on your original post do not look Gordon. Those were two ribbons with a a single bell on each ribbon. The type pictured were common to Royal High, A&SH, and Cameron's. No significance in jackets between Simplified, Normal SD and Cutaways. Joe Sweeney Joe, I think your hypothesis that these are Cameron Highlanders may be likely. In looking again at the kilt of the LCpl in Suddery's linked thread, the populous dark lines in the tartan are probably the red lines (as represented in the orthochromatic film) of the 79th tartan. A Government tartan derived kilt would not exhibit this density of lines. The Gordon tartan would be yellow overstripes on the Government tartan. Your point regarding the belled hose flashes may be valid; however, we need to be cautious on this because of possible field shortages. The position of the flash on the side of the leg would be consistent with the Camerons while the Black Watch and Argylls would have worn this same flash with the leading edge aligned to the center of the shin (with the center of the front front die on diced hose). So, the preponderance of the evidence seems to point toward Cameron Highlanders as you have suggested. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Sweeney Posted 4 August , 2012 Share Posted 4 August , 2012 Your point regarding the belled hose flashes may be valid; however, we need to be cautious on this because of possible field shortages. Mike Mike, I think I would be less cautiuos about Garter flashes--or Garter Knots/Rosettes as most Highland units called them at the time.. You may not be aware but these things were only material issue before and during the Great War. Units got the ribbon and elastic band or (tie material earlier) and had to make them up at unit level. During the war you can easily find both elastic as intended and tie on--I have several of both kinds from Great War sets. It does not make sense that if only material issue why make the wrong type for your unit unless a recent transfer. Joe Sweeney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon92 Posted 4 August , 2012 Share Posted 4 August , 2012 Mike, I think I would be less cautiuos about Garter flashes--or Garter Knots/Rosettes as most Highland units called them at the time.. You may not be aware but these things were only material issue before and during the Great War. Units got the ribbon and elastic band or (tie material earlier) and had to make them up at unit level. During the war you can easily find both elastic as intended and tie on--I have several of both kinds from Great War sets. It does not make sense that if only material issue why make the wrong type for your unit unless a recent transfer. Joe Sweeney Thanks for the clarification, Joe. I was unaware that the garter flashes were made up at the unit level. The most complex to construct would have been the Seaforth flash consisting of two bells above two tabs. Question: You noted that the shoulder arch in the original photograph was indicative of the 5th Camerons who were a Service Bn. Was it usual for a Service Bn to have invented a uniform distinction upon its formation in 1914? Are there examples of other Service Bns doing this? Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tn.drummond Posted 4 August , 2012 Author Share Posted 4 August , 2012 I think you may actually be looking at 5th BN QOCH not Gordon's. That Battalion had a Yellow arch at top of both arms. Joe Sweeney Thanks for pointing me in the correct direction. From Mike Chapell's British Battle Insignia Vol (1): ""By 1916...the 9th (Division) adopted a system of company indicator patches worn on the sleeve. These were worn as an arc, at the top of the sleeve, red for A co', yellow for B, blue for C and green for D". For those not aware the 5th QOCH were in the 26th Bde of the 9th. I'll see if I can access diary entries for the battalion on 10/7/16 but from some reading around appears they were out of line that day. Again thanks Suddery Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tn.drummond Posted 4 August , 2012 Author Share Posted 4 August , 2012 Question: You noted that the shoulder arch in the original photograph was indicative of the 5th Camerons who were a Service Bn. Was it usual for a Service Bn to have invented a uniform distinction upon its formation in 1914? Are there examples of other Service Bns doing this? Mike They evolved on an ad-hoc basis and seem to have permeated down from Divisional, to Brigade, to Battalion (usually in order of seniority within brigade) thence to company. Many appear to have been instigated at the behest of divisional Major Generals to create a sense of esprit-de-corps in the K units. Corps and Army insignia were also in place but, probably due to the fluidity of units below, did not appear on frontline units; indeed I've seen no evidence of them appearing on staffs either so they may have been used as pennants on Corps commanders vehicles (latter a wee bit speculative). In short, Service examples are many. Suddery Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tn.drummond Posted 4 August , 2012 Author Share Posted 4 August , 2012 Mike, I think I would be less cautiuos about Garter flashes--or Garter Knots/Rosettes as most Highland units called them at the time.. You may not be aware but these things were only material issue before and during the Great War. Units got the ribbon and elastic band or (tie material earlier) and had to make them up at unit level. During the war you can easily find both elastic as intended and tie on--I have several of both kinds from Great War sets. It does not make sense that if only material issue why make the wrong type for your unit unless a recent transfer. Joe Sweeney Joe Thought this photo of the neglected "Fourth" man (no, not Anthony Blunt) might be of benefit in view of your conversation with Mike as the depiction of his hosiery is much clearer. Although I am sure your assertion of 5th QOCH is correct the identification of the 9th does of mean a number of other Scottish Battalions need to be eliminated. Suddery Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Sweeney Posted 4 August , 2012 Share Posted 4 August , 2012 Suddery, The lack of clear shoulder titles is frustrating--would it be possible to blow up the sitting Serg's left shoulder? As for the Flashes/knots/rosettes---They are not Gordon's or Seaforth's (5th??) --Unfortunately they are of a type worn by most Highland units. Joe Sweeney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tn.drummond Posted 4 August , 2012 Author Share Posted 4 August , 2012 Suddery, The lack of clear shoulder titles is frustrating--would it be possible to blow up the sitting Serg's left shoulder? Joe Sweeney Good shot Joe but to my eye could be Gordon or Cameron. As I'm obviously pretty much in the general knowledge sphere for both I did wonder if, as no Ts* are in evidence, we're dealing with a regular battalion which would be even more exasperating as it would eliminate the 9th. Anyway, I continue to favour the 5th QOCH, having looked at kilts all day this, and the nugget you provided re. the arc flash still make them front runners. One thing I've not yet done is an MIC check for an Alexander Craig (I was looking only for Gordons before) and the Arbroath address. I'll do this tomorrow morning as I'm unashamedly working myself up for the athletics tonight, my sporting passion. Again thanks for the help. Suddery * EDIT or numbers for service battalions p.s Just noticed the upload ain't great. Will re do tomorrow but trust me, it's indecipherable and in the brass semicircular format with no additions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A-D Posted 4 August , 2012 Share Posted 4 August , 2012 Thanks for the suggestion but I don't access Facebook (too worried what my children are posting on it). Could you let me know what content / topic is please ? S Gordon Highanders WWI reenactment group, Good bunch of guys with a lot of knowledge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tn.drummond Posted 5 August , 2012 Author Share Posted 5 August , 2012 Gordon Highanders WWI reenactment group, Good bunch of guys with a lot of knowledge Thanks for filling me in - most grateful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tn.drummond Posted 5 August , 2012 Author Share Posted 5 August , 2012 Struck a blank with searching for both A and Alexander Craig with a Camerons link on Ancestry. Only outside chances were MICs for: Alexander Craig Pte Camerons S29457 Gordons S 41251 V & B medals on the Gordons list (Provisionally discounted as not an NCO). Alexander R Craig Pte Camerons S 26495 RDC 83978 V & B medals on (Provisionally discounted as not an NCO). There is of course no evidence that Mrs Alexr Craig was a relative of any of the four men. I realise that the Lance Corporal depicted may not have been confirmed as a Corporal and so could conceivably be matches, but... Suddery Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon92 Posted 5 August , 2012 Share Posted 5 August , 2012 Good shot Joe but to my eye could be Gordon or Cameron. As I'm obviously pretty much in the general knowledge sphere for both I did wonder if, as no Ts* are in evidence, we're dealing with a regular battalion which would be even more exasperating as it would eliminate the 9th. Anyway, I continue to favour the 5th QOCH, having looked at kilts all day this, and the nugget you provided re. the arc flash still make them front runners. One thing I've not yet done is an MIC check for an Alexander Craig (I was looking only for Gordons before) and the Arbroath address. I'll do this tomorrow morning as I'm unashamedly working myself up for the athletics tonight, my sporting passion. Again thanks for the help. Suddery * EDIT or numbers for service battalions p.s Just noticed the upload ain't great. Will re do tomorrow but trust me, it's indecipherable and in the brass semicircular format with no additions. Suddery and Joe, The shoulder title on the blow up could be either CAMERON or GORDON. The position and configuration of the garter hose in the #17 photo plus the pattern of the tartan leads me to conclude CAMERON. Regarding shoulder titles worn by Service Bns, according to Ray Westlake in Collecting Metal Shoulder Titles p. 57: "SERVICE BATTALIONS For the most part shoulder titles, if worn at all, were those of the regular battalions." So, the absence of a T would not necessarily connote a regular battalion. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tn.drummond Posted 5 August , 2012 Author Share Posted 5 August , 2012 Suddery and Joe, The shoulder title on the blow up could be either CAMERON or GORDON. The position and configuration of the garter hose in the #17 photo plus the pattern of the tartan leads me to conclude CAMERON. Regarding shoulder titles worn by Service Bns, according to Ray Westlake in Collecting Metal Shoulder Titles p. 57: "SERVICE BATTALIONS For the most part shoulder titles, if worn at all, were those of the regular battalions." So, the absence of a T would not necessarily connote a regular battalion. Mike Mike Many thanks. Looks pretty compelling for the Camerons - I'll do some more research to see if I can tie the 5th down to Ailly-sur-Somme on 10th July 1916. If I can this should seal it. I'll keep my eyes out for the Westlake shoulder titles book. His "Kitchener's Army" is one of my fundamental source books; pretty invaluable. Suddery Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tn.drummond Posted 5 August , 2012 Author Share Posted 5 August , 2012 Thought it might be helpful to post the whole image - not sure the French boys kilts will help but it is a pretty evocative image given the date. Suddery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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