Should the Germans have sortied their battlefleet in spring 1918?

[Simon Mills]

Victory:

I’m pleased to say that I have a very established track record when it comes to doing my own research, with regard to publishing and television documentaries. At the last count I think I have researched something like a dozen documentaries, all of which have required extensive reference to source materials in numerous different archives.

As for the reference to the passage in Dan van der Vat’s book, I would give you the same advice as I gave to Darren Brown; if you have an issue with it then contact the author!

Rest assured that I have no intention of continuing this discussion with you. If you wish to continue in this vein then I shall just have to leave it to the moderators to decide how to deal with the activities of certain individuals who have effectively ruined what was a promising thread.

Edited 31 August , 2012 by Keith Roberts
forum rules.

[Gary Charles]

Simon, you are the one who quoted der Vat, I was simply responding to your quote.

Edited 1 September , 2012 by Keith Roberts
Forum Rules

[MikB]

I think it effectively terminates the debate when the moderators intervene as severely as has been the case here, so, like Simon, I think I'll sign out of this one.

But I'll be taking away something, and it's this: however much access some folk have to excellent primary sources, and however much time they have to research them, they can still construct incoherent arguments from what they find.

I didn't realise that before.

Regards,

MikB

Edited 2 September , 2012 by Keith Roberts
forum rules - respect

[keithmroberts]

For the benefit of those interested in the topic.

I have removed a two relatively small parts of one lengthy post, which was couched in terms that failed to respect forum rules. I then found it necessary to remove one inappropriate word from a subsequent post, and then a comment in a third post on moderation which was in my view not appropriate or in keeping with forum rules.

My first edit removed a point in debate that could have been made without discourtesy. My subsequent interventions were to remove matters that had no bearing on the discussion.

The forum exists for debate as well as support and the sharing of information. There is no reason why members who wish to contribute courteously to a thread should feel inhibited. I and my colleagues will continue to seek to maintain that tone.

We will undoubtedly continue to intervene where a lack of courtesy or a breach of forum rules comes to our attention. If any member is unhappy with the moderation on the board, I am happy to discuss specifics by PM.

Keith Roberts

Edited again this morning. 1 to remove a remark based on my frustration with some members attitudes, and secondly to confirm removal of a couple of other words or phrases that are no acceptable. KR 02/09/2012

Edited 2 September , 2012 by Keith Roberts
Minor edit for accuracy

[Signals]

Hi All, well I’m surprised at the level of interest & discussion from people that do not use primary source information at all but feel their 2 liners carry as much weight, but are always correct, I did not realize this before. The words of Churchill in 1917 are exactly his, the words from the British Government are exactly theirs, people like Frost also came to similar conclusions, and the centre of the debate that upsets people is not so much as to why the HSF should have sortied in 1918, but as Frost says on page 312, “Jellicoe's offensive measures to draw out the Germans ceased after Jutland. “Why did the Grand Fleet not Sortie after Jutland & take advantage of their great victory? They were the numerically superior navy for sure, Henry Whyte, after the first day's fight with the Spanish Armada, "the offensive must be Britannia's role in warfare.” Alas, this was over, from this moment in time they began their slide, as Frost also says on Page 314, “Never again would American or Japanese sailors be overawed by the powerful, even overwhelming, force of British naval tradition. “The issue is that as a stand-alone function the Blockade did not work for 3 years and as Churchill says it won’t, it needed icing on the cake to complete the ring, and this should have been achieved by a crushing naval victory, but this was impossible when the Grand Fleet gave up on the idea, that is why the US entry was ever so important. That is what Churchill is telling you, not me, and that is what the British Government is telling you and both these sources should know.

So what wins, primary source or poor research in a book, the ridiculous debate over whether German crew spent their time on board is such a case that needs to be hit on the head. Read what Victory has put on his post from the book in question, and then compare it to the compilation below from the logs of S.M.S Goeben. What wins, the book, or the logs? Surely the book should be condemned, not recommended as fact by so many people on forums. The list below is exaclty what should be used to dismiss or prove the myth of whether Germans lived in their ships or not.

1. Constantinople 15.11.1912—15.3.1913

2. Salonika 17.3—25.3.1913

3. Phalerum Bay 27.3—29.3.1913

4. Salamis, near Piraeus 29.3—3.4.1913

5. Brindisi 5.4.1913

6. Constantinople 8.4—19.4.1913

7. Izmir 21.4—25.4.1913

8. Kovelo Bay, near Izmir 26.4—28.4.1913

9. Piraeus 29.4—2.5.1913

10. Mersin 5.5—10.5.1913

11. Iskenderun 11.5—14.5.1913

12. Beirut 15.5—17.5.1913

13. Haifa 18.5—19.5.1913

14. Jaffa 20.5.1913

15. Alexandria 21.5—26.5.1913

16. Port Said 27.5.1913

17. Piraeus 29.5.1913

18. Venice 2.6—6.6.1913

19. Pola 7.6—11.6.1913

20. Naples 14.6—20.6.1914

21. Piraeus 23.6—1.8.1913

22. Bojana Mouth (Albania) 4.8—6.8.1913

23. Brindisi 7.8—9.8.1913

24. Mersin 13.8—14.8.1913

25. Iskenderun 15.8.1913

26. Siros Island 18.8.1913

27. Brindisi 20.8.1913

28. Pola 21.8—16.10.1913

29. Capo d’Istria, near Trieste 16.10—23.10.1913

30. Trieste 23.10—24.10.1913Command change Trummler-Souchon.

31. Korfu 26.10.1913

32. Siros 29.10.1913

33. Mersin 1.11—11.11.1913

34. Iskenderun 13.11—14.11.1913

35. Latakia (Syria) 15.11—16.11.1913

36. Iskenderun 17.11—25.11.1913

37. Beirut 27.11—30.11.1913

38. Alexandria 2.12—9.12.1913

39. Iskenderun 11.12—14.12.1913

40. Mersin 15.12.1913

41. Alanya 16.12.1913

42. Antalya 17.12.1913

43. Izmir 19.12.1913—2.1.1914

44. Piraeus 3.1—10.1.1914

45. Siracusa 13.1.1914

46. Messina 14.1.1914

47. Maddalena Island, near Sardinia 16.1—17.1

48. Spezia 18.1—24.1.1914

49. Genoa 25.1—2.2.1914

50. St. Margarita, near Genoa 3.2—16.2.1914

51. Naples 18.2—7.3.1914

52. Taormina, Sicily 8.3.1914

53. Taranto 9.3—10.3.1914

54. Brindisi 11.3.1914

55. Rodoni, Albania 12.3—13.3.1914

56. Bojana mouth 13.3.1914

57. Pola 14.3.1914

58. Alberoni, near Venice 15.3—27.3.1914

59. Miramare, near Trieste 27.3.1914

60. Korfu 29.3—3.5.1914

61. Portofino, near Genoa 6.5.1914

62. Genoa 6.5—7.5.1914

63. Naples 9.5—10.5.1914

64. Constantinople 15.5—22.5.1914

65. Besika Bay 23.5—24.5.1914

66. Alexandropoulis 24.5—25.5.1914

67. Izmir 26.5—1.6.1914

68. Fethiye 3.6.1914

69. Melisse 4.6.1914

70. Iskenderun 5.6—12.6.1914

71. Mersin 13.6—14.6.1914

72. Antakya Bay 15.6.1914

73. Latakia 15.6.1914

74. Tripoli 16.6.1914

75. Saida 17.6.1914

76. Haifa 18.6.1914

77. Port Said 20.6—24.6.1914

78. Jaffa 25.6—27.6.1914

79. Haifa 28.6.1914

80. Akko, near Haifa 29.6.1914

81. Famagusta, Cyprus 30.6—1.7.1914

82. Larnaka 2.7.1914

83. Kandia, Crete 4.7.1914

84. Patras 6.7—7.71914

85. Korfu 8.7.1914

86. Pola 10.7—22.7.1914

87. Pirano, near Trieste 23.7—29.7.1914

88. Trieste 30.7.1914

[Gary Charles]

_{Here is a quote from a book commenting on the role of the German sailor:}

_{“The relationship between a German sailor and his ship was comparable with that of a soldier in an armoured regiment and his tank. The soldier is actually only inside the tank for purposes of battle, movement or exercises. He does not eat in it; he has to get out even to brew tea, and he certainly does not sleep in it.”}

_{I am interested in the opinion of some of the 3730 people who have read this post, do think it is fair comment?}

Edited 2 September , 2012 by Keith Roberts
Forum rules.

[Khaki]

For what it is worth, under normal circumstances I would not have responded to this topic which so many feel so strongly about and I know so little, but when I read this passage it reminded me of a conversation I had with an old RN sailor now long since dead. He was not at Scapa during the scuttling of the fleet but the conversation turned to it as I lamented the waste of such fine ships. He stated to me that it was probably just as well as the German ships were of no use to the worldwide needs of the RN. Apart from the different manufacturing techniques and metric-v-imperial issues he added that the German ships were not designed with long periods at sea in mind. Not that it was not possible, just that it was not part of the German design concept.

As to the original question about a final sortie, it probably would have been suicidal and I doubt that a 'kamikazi' strategy was ever part of any German naval consideration.

khaki

_{Here is a quote from a book commenting on the role of the German sailor:}

_{“The relationship between a German sailor and his ship was comparable with that of a soldier in an armoured regiment and his tank. The soldier is actually only inside the tank for purposes of battle, movement or exercises. He does not eat in it; he has to get out even to brew tea, and he certainly does not sleep in it.”}

_{I am interested in the opinion of some of the 3730 people who have read this post, do think it is fair comment?}

Edited 2 September , 2012 by Keith Roberts
quoted comment edited to reflect amended post

[keithmroberts]

This thread was closed overnight after some inappropriate posts. I have made a couple of further minor edits, and now re-opened the thread.

All members are reminded that courtesy towards others is a requirement and is not optional. What can be acceptable over a beer is not acceptable on line. There is no need to respect the views expressed by others, but there is an absolute need to express differences respectfully.

Keith Roberts