Date a military burial

[Doug_R]

I am looking for assistance with the attached photo. It was taken by Arthur Hinkins, a professional photographer of Retford, (North Notts) & so was probably taken at Retford’s municipal cemetery (but there are other cemeteries around the area where they could have taken).

1. I note shoulder badges on a couple of the buglers in the foreground.

2. The sergeant standing front right (no hat & carrying a sword) is holding a flag that was probably draped over the coffin. He is also holding a military hat and what appears to be a tunic. Hanging from the tunic is what could be a medal (too big?) or a badge (best seen in photo 2).

Are there any clues on the photo that provide:

1. Regiment(s) attending the ceremony?

2. Approximate date?

[gordon92]

I am looking for assistance with the attached photo. It was taken by Arthur Hinkins, a professional photographer of Retford, (North Notts) & so was probably taken at Retford’s municipal cemetery (but there are other cemeteries around the area where they could have taken).

1. I note shoulder badges on a couple of the buglers in the foreground.

2. The sergeant standing front right (no hat & carrying a sword) is holding a flag that was probably draped over the coffin. He is also holding a military hat and what appears to be a tunic. Hanging from the tunic is what could be a medal (too big?) or a badge (best seen in photo 2).

Are there any clues on the photo that provide:

1. Regiment(s) attending the ceremony?

2. Approximate date?

For dating I see two clues in this photo.

The first, as you have noted, is that the buglers are wearing shoulder titles. They appear to be metal. Metal shoulder titles on service dress began to be worn in 1907. So, that bounds the date on the early end.

The second clue is that two men on the right, seen between the two soldiers wearing boots, are in full dress tunics. The one on the right, with the shoulder shell apparent, appears to be a bandsman; that could perhaps date the picture all the way into the 1930s. The figure to the bandsman's left seems to be a sergeant with a shoulder sash and without a shoulder shell. Such a uniform would have have been rarely worn after 1914 unless a Guardsman, and the look of the subject tunic does not seem to be the Guards pattern.

With some uncertainty, I would say 1907-1914. However if the sergeant's full dress tunic is a bandsman uniform, it might be the 1930s.

The weapons are likely a further clue (possibly Long Lee-Enfields); I am sure someone will be along who is an expert in that field to render an opinion.

I hope the above is of interest.

[daggers]

Another observation. Buglers, riflemen and the booted couple are not wearing belts. I can draw no conclusion.

D

[4thGordons]

I think the rifles are actually Lee Metfords (or they may be conversions to Enfield rifling from Metfords). The rifle which is clearest and on which most detail can be seen has grasping grooves in the stock. This was a feature of MkI and MkI* Lee-Metfords.

These were introduced in 1891/92 so that is the cannot be before date, but they and conversions based on them continued in service up to the war although they show up far less frequently than MLEs/CLLEs

If this is a Regular Army unit as opposed to TF I would have suggested it was turn of the century(but that appears to be discounted by uniform details) so... TF or perhaps an early war Kitchener battalion with stop-gap arms?

Chris

Edit

Hmmmmm Might it be possible to get a close up scan of the rifle.... there is an outside possibility it is an Arisaka (a japanese rifle) which Britain bought and used a number of early in the war. It too had grasping grooves.This would narrow the date down a lot and make it certain it was a wartime picture

This is the bit I would like a zoom in on if poss.

Edited 15 July , 2012 by 4thGordons

[Doug_R]

Thanks for replies so far.

Attached is close up of rifles, as requested.

[Tyneside Chinaman]

That looks very much like a T/NUMBER/COUNTY shoulder title so TF men.

regards

John

[4thGordons]

Box magazine visible so that rules out Arisaka.

Finger grooves make it a Metford or conversion from a Metford, depth of magazine suggests it is the earlier 8rnd single stack box so this is either quite a bit pre war, or post outbreak and equipped with stop-gap arms.

I agree on the shoulder title - looks like a TF unit.

Chris

[squirrel]

FWIW - the buglers' bugle cords appear to be of one colour so not a "Royal" regiment (they had red/blue/yellow plaited cords) and none of them appears to be wearing a bugler's or drummer's badge - usually worn right arm between elbow and shoulder. I'd go with a TF regiment also.

[4thGordons]

The almost total bsence of belts is odd to me.

Might it signify a MOUNTED unit? (several of the officers have spurs on, I know.... officers often rode even in non mounted units so....) Is it possible to see on the original which way the men's puttees are wrapped? The buglers seem to be bottom up as normal.

I suppose alternatively it could indicate early war shortage of equipment which might also jive with the older rifles.

Chris

[high wood]

I wonder if they are Yeomanry as Territorials generally have a T and the battalion number above the name. These appear to have the letter Y and then the name of the county regiment. Having said that they often have T/Y/ (County) as well. You pays your money and you takes your choice.

[squirrel]

I may have this wrong, but somewhere I seem to remember that sidearms (bayonets) and belts are not worn at military funerals. Stand to be corrected of course.

[trajan]

Is there any significance in the fact that the sergeant at right is wearing a sword?

Trajan

[Thunderbox]

The sergeant with the sword and the two men behind him with boots and spurs are presumably part of the pall-bearer party. These wouldn't wear headgear when carrying the coffin. Normally they'd be from the same regiment as the deceased, but in this case they may be from an RHA/RGA unit providing a gun limber for the cortege.

Rifles look to me like unconverted Metfords, but an honour guard could have been drawn from any type of unit - training, OTC, TF, etc - that happened to be in the local district.

[KevinBattle]

I'm no grave digger, but that seems an impressive amount of soil for a single burial.

Also quite a turn out, so someone(s) of a certain standing in either the military (officer, or pilots of crashed plane nearby?) or civic world...

Whilst that photo is almost 100 years old, is there any similarity to say Retford Cemetery?

Are there any CWGC burials in cemeteries around Retford?

I've checked CWGC and can't find anything on a burial in Retford Cemetery.

Also the soldier rear right seems to have a black band on BOTH arms whilst none of the others appear to.

Is that some significance at military funerals, a relative with a mourning band already for one relative when another died "At Home"?

Just my tuppence, may not be of any worth at all!!

[squirrel]

[

I'm no grave digger, but that seems an impressive amount of soil for a single burial.

About right for one burial I would say. 8'x 3'x 6' deep produces an impressive amount of loose spoil

[HERITAGE PLUS]

Arthur Hinkins operated in Exchange Street, Retford from 1888 when he purchased an existing photography business. In later years he was assisted by his son, Bertram.

He died in 1935.

There are 14 CWGC Graves in East Retford, Cemetery covering the years 1915-20.

Units are: Lincolns (4), RFA (2), Sherwoods (2), West Yorks (1), Wilts (1), MGC (1), Durhams (1), RE (1) and RN (1).

Years: 1915 (3), 1916 (4), 1917 (2), 1918 (1), 1919 (1) and 1920 (1).

There is just one grave in East Retford Baptist Chapel grounds, an MT ASC man in 1918.

Dave

[HERITAGE PLUS]

I've been looking at the photo again and I have formed the opinion that the bandsmen are not from a military band.

I believe that I may have found a possible connection (Worksop Town Band) and location (Retford Road Cemetery, Worksop?) with the photo.

Attached is a 1914 photo of the band. Note the bandsmen have 'wings' and the Bandmaster is wearing a sash. These uniforms had been purchased in 1912.

New uniforms, in a completely different style, were purchased by the band in 1920.

The band later became the Worksop Miners Welfare Band.

Hope this helps.

Dave

[Graham Stewart]

That looks very much like a T/NUMBER/COUNTY shoulder title so TF men.

regards

John

Very much Territorials as John says and probably second line. Not a weapons enthusiast, but the Long Lee Enfield as previously mentioned was the mainstay of the TF pre-war and still used by the second & third lines long after the first lines had left for overseas service and were issued SMLE's.

The soldier wearing boots and spurs could very well be from a Corps unit, which has access to either a limber or GS wagon to assist in the funeral. The senior rank is a CQMS, wearing a metal crown above the three stripes, this would indicate possibly 1915 or later - as prior to this date they were Colour Sgt's and wore a cloth crown above the stripes. The mention of the scarlet jacket also has no Guards connection at all and for the uniform collectors among us the two vertical white piped lines indicate a pattern of scarlet uniform worn by the T.F.

[keithfazzani]

The amount of soil, as someone has said, is indeed that which one would expect from a single grave. These days we are more coy about such things and the mound is often covered with green tarpaulin or false grass, so quantity is misleading. The main mourners are civilian and although difficult to tell I would say that the woman on the left looking down at the grave is elderly. People have mentioned Territorial and Yeomanry, going by the guessed age of the lady, the number of men could this be the burial of the local commander of such a unit. Worth checking the local newspaper archives for the first few years of the twentieth century perhaps for such a burial.

[Bingo794]

Just a thought........In East Retford there were billeted a fair number of Sherwood Rangers Yeomanry from at least Christmas, 1914 and at a local camp (Granby or Tranby rings a bell with me.)

The Sherwood Rangers based at East Retford were issued with Lee Metford's. The unit War Diary is quite sparse, though does mention the issue of these rifles along with machine guns, type not specified and with no ammunition. This is confirmed by a collection of photographs in the East Retford library.

I see that there is a chap on the right with spurs attached to his boots and the Sergeants sword tells me, a mounted unit.

DW

[Bingo794]

.....another thought.

It isn't the Church Yard (All Hallowes) at Gamston/Eaton is it?

DW

[Graham Stewart]

I see that there is a chap on the right with spurs attached to his boots and the Sergeants sword tells me, a mounted unit.

DW

Swords worn by senior ranks are not the preserve of the cavalry or yeomanry, they're also worn by senior ranks in the infantry, which has been discussed in other posts.

[Doug_R]

Thanks for all your comments.

My initial assumption was that this was a WW1 burial (which it may still be) but the dress style of the female mourners by the graveside appear to be mid/late Edwardian (I know mourning dress could be worn for many years after purchase). Your various comments seem to focus on the 1907 to 1914 period.

Responses to some specific questions:

4th Gordons - "which way are tuppees wrapped". Not sure whether you meant bottom up vs top down or clockwise vs anticlockwise. I can only distinguish the bottom up on the buglers as you have already noted.

Bingo 794 - "Grandby or Tranby". You are probably referring to Ranby, a village about 3 miles west of Retford. There was an army camp there from at least WW2. It closed in the 1970's and was converted to a category C prison.

KevinBattle & Bingo794 - Its likely this photo was taken in Retford's municipal cemetery on the North Rd. but there are other possibilities in the villages around the town. There are positional clues in the photo - looking between NW & NE, 2 notable headstones behind the burial grave, grave to the left with border stonework. I'll do some hunting when I'm next in the area.

[4thGordons]

Responses to some specific questions:

4th Gordons - "which way are tuppees wrapped". Not sure whether you meant bottom up vs top down or clockwise vs anticlockwise. I can only distinguish the bottom up on the buglers as you have already noted.

I meant top down vs bottom up

Mounted troops often wrapped them top down (with tie at the bottom) to reduce the chance of them rubbing undone whilst riding. I was just looking or clues as to a mounted role or not.

Chris

[Bingo794]

Thanks for all your comments.

My initial assumption was that this was a WW1 burial (which it may still be) but the dress style of the female mourners by the graveside appear to be mid/late Edwardian (I know mourning dress could be worn for many years after purchase). Your various comments seem to focus on the 1907 to 1914 period.

Responses to some specific questions:

4th Gordons - "which way are tuppees wrapped". Not sure whether you meant bottom up vs top down or clockwise vs anticlockwise. I can only distinguish the bottom up on the buglers as you have already noted.

Bingo 794 - "Grandby or Tranby". You are probably referring to Ranby, a village about 3 miles west of Retford. There was an army camp there from at least WW2. It closed in the 1970's and was converted to a category C prison.

KevinBattle & Bingo794 - Its likely this photo was taken in Retford's municipal cemetery on the North Rd. but there are other possibilities in the villages around the town. There are positional clues in the photo - looking between NW & NE, 2 notable headstones behind the burial grave, grave to the left with border stonework. I'll do some hunting when I'm next in the area.

Hi Doug

Ranby!..........Thats the one.

I have a couple of photographs which are marked with this name, both have my Grandfather mounted on a sizeable horse with his Sherwood Ranger uniform, the other is a group shot of his unit of about eight or ten men.

He was there 1914 to 1916, from where he posted to Canterbury and a cyclist messenger.

DW