Painting/unknown Kings Liverpool man

[andalucia]

Hi all

A guy named Roger has contacted me via a friend. He has a rather interesting painting of a King's Liverpool soldier.

You can read what Roger has found out and where he has looked in his message below. Thought I would post it here in case others have any thoughts about it. Also im hoping that by posting it in a lot of places it may get recognised, long shot I know.

Cheers All

Ant

I bought a portrait of a Soldier of the First World War at a Car Boot Sale in Lancaster early during 2008. All I know about it is that the young man pictured was apparently a member of the Liverpool Regiment.

I contacted the Liverpool Echo and as a result, they ran a story during November 2008 as part of their 90th anniversary of the Armistice remembrance along with a picture of the portrait. As a result of the feedback I received from their readers, I have chased-up loads of contacts in a bid to discover who this soldier was, what happened to him or – failing that – at least who painted the portrait. So far, I have had no success. Having said that, I have received some really interesting nuggets of information from various people. Chief among these is Simon Wilkinson, who sent me the following e-mail:

It’s a wonderful painting. I hope you find out who he is. Good luck…

I’ve just had another look and it struck me that the cap badge is all brass. This may be a clue. The standard King’s Regt. badge was bi-metal. I know that the 5th Btn. wore a blackened brass version and the 7th & 9th Btns. wore an all white metal version. Perhaps there was a battalion who wore an all brass version?...

I have a theory – it’s a wild stab in the dark, but see what you think:

I would say this painting was copied from a photograph. I would also say it’s unusual for a private to sit for a painting. Maybe this is a young man who fell and his family wanted something to remember him by. They paid an artist to turn a photograph into a painting – a more impressive memorial perhaps?

I would therefore say he was a casualty from a non-regular battalion

The e-mail trail led to Eric Roper, the Secretary/Newsletter Editor of The King's Regiment Association Liverpool Branch. He put a picture of the portrait and an article by one Keith Page in this Newsletter, Issue 13 (of April 2009). Keith also gave me the e-mail of the Liverpool Museums Service. I sent two e-mails to this contact, offering to lend my portrait to be seen by Liverpuddlians in the hope that someone somewhere might actually be able to unravel the mystery of the Unknown Soldier. Sadly, I got no reply to either of them. So I went to the offices at Albert Dock and tried to persuade them to put the picture on display in the King’s Regiment part of the Museum, but they would not do so.

I contacted Liverpool, Everton and Tranmere Rovers football clubs to ask if they would feature the portrait and a bit of information about it in their match day magazines. Only Everton actually replied, politely pointing out that that was not a role they thought any football club should play: if they started featuring stories like mine, the floodgates would open and there would be no room for any soccer-related stuff in their programme.

So the trail has run cold.

[pbrydon]

Looks like a similar item to one that I have which is enlarged photo which has then been hand coloured.There was a fair bit of artistic licence with these and I dont think the cap badge being apparently all brass in the picture is a clue.

This is my picture, I will post a copy of the original photo in another post.

P.B.

[pbrydon]

This is the original photo of which the earlier picture is a hand coloured copy.

P.B.

[pbrydon]

Another hand coloured photo of a member of the Kings Liverpools that I have, Like the owner of the picture which started this thread I hope that one day I will identify the men in my pictures but when you consider the number of members of just one regiment in WW1 you get an idea of the difficulty of the task.

I was lucky with a similar picture to a member of the Liverpool Scottish, the original photograph ( which had been enlarged and coloured ) is in "Bravest of Hearts" by the late Hal Giblin and so identification of that soldier was very easy.

P.B.

[pgardiner1418]

Ant,

The cap badge of 7th & 9th King's is often quoted as being a deciding factor in a photograph id but while it is true that pre war the 7th Battalion did sport an all white metal version of the badge all my research points to them wearing the bi-metal badge on active service, likewise the T 7 KINGS shoulder titles which seem to have lasted only as long as stock held out, after that it was the plain KINGS title.

All the best,

Paul.

[pbrydon]

Paul,

My, and fellow collectors research suggests that it was only the 7th Kings Liverpools who wore the all white metal badge. The evidence suggests that the 9th Kings wore the bi metal badge as worn by the regulars.

Further research suggests that the Kings were not one of the regiments who ( officially ) had an all brass economy badge in WW1.

( Some threads on the British and Commonwealth Badge Forum on these subjects but might take some finding )

P.B.

[pgardiner1418]

P.B.

Thanks for that information. Do you have any thoughts on the question of the 7th Battalion switching to the bi-metal badge on active service? I have come to believe that Territorial battalions of a regiment who sported any badge differing to the Line Regiment had to apply to the War Office for permission to take that badge to war, as far as the Liverpool's went only the 5th, 6th, 8th and 10th Battalions badges were approved, where this information came from I cannot remember but I would be interested in your opinion.

All the best,

Paul

[andalucia]

Thanks for the info all. very interesting.

Im thinking maybe trawling through the local papers to see if the original photo was ever included ( thats if he died ) Long shot again but worth a try. Then again he may not be from the north west.

P.B any idea who the Artist is in your paintings?

[pbrydon]

Paul,

Tried to send you a PM but it says you are not recieving any ( or words to that effect ) Not heard of approval being needed for territorial badges to be worn in wartime.

Andalucia,

No names of photographer/artist on the pictures, the first coloured picture I posted is in fact on canvas. Could you please let me know if you see either of my men in your searches.

Peter

[andalucia]

Yes Peter of course I will look for all of them.

Im thinking of including the painting on the Liverpool Wartime Remembrance website. May I add yours as well? Give them more exposure. You never know who may see them. Will credit you for the pics.

Ant

[pgardiner1418]

Peter,

Thank you for that. You can always get in touch via my website www.tommyatkins1418.co.uk

[pbrydon]

andalucia,

No problem

Paul,

Will send you an E mail

Peter

[andalucia]

Thanks Peter.

I go on my Joliies this Wednesday ( 10 days in Menorca woo hoo ) will add the pics to the wartime website when I return.

Ant

[Ken Lees]

I have a similar painting of a Liverpool Regiment soldier. As has been suggested in this thread, they were often created from a photograph. I have a copy of the photograph of 'my' man from one of the Liverpool newspapers after his death and there is no mistaking the fact that the painting is a hand-coloured version of the photograph. I was very fortunate in that I acquired the painting along with his medals, original grave photo, etc. so I knew who he was. I later found the photo in the newspaper.

[pbrydon]

In the hope that these might be of interest here are some more WW1 hand coloured pictures of some Kings Liverpool Regiment soldiers, two known,one unknown.

Rather a lot of artistic licence in the colour of the kilt in the larger Liverpool Scottish picture, the kilt appears to reddish rather than the green of Forbes tartan.

P.B.

[the-5th-kings]

I dont know if this will help but i have a picture of my Great-Grandad John Madden who was in the 3/5 King's (Liverpool) Regiment. The picture must have been painted after the war as he has a medal bar and what i would say looked like a bi-metal cap badge. The 5th battalion as far as i know but i may be wrong, were the only King's battalion to have a brass (white horse of Hanover) cap badge and even this was blackened. The cap badge in my picture should be black but it just looks like it has been painted the wrong colour, maybe the same thing has happened with the cap badge in the top picture with it being all brass.

Colin