Did the Americans also use the Lee Enfield?

[Lt Colonel Gerald Smyth]

I always thought they only ever used the Springfield rifle but I recently read that during WW2 they supplied vast numbers of old Lee Enfields to the Home Guard but recalibred to .30 (bet THAT was a nightmare for any armourer!). So did the Yanks use them too or were these rifles made in America and intended for export to Britain?

[TonyE]

I think there is confusion here between Lee Enfield rifles and" Enfield" rifles.

During WWI Britain contracted with Winchester and Remington to manufacture the Enfield designed Pattern '14 rifle. This is a Mauser based design and is not a Lee Enfield. When these contracts were cancelled after about 1.2 million rifles had been made the Americans modified the design to chamber their .30 inch round and produced the US Rifle Model of 1917 for their own expanding army. These were actually used far more than the Springfield by the US army in WWI. Both the .303 inch P.'14 and the .30 inch M1917 are referred to as "Enfields" by the Americans.

In 1940 Britain purchased large numbers of .30 inch M1917 rifles from America and these were issued to the Home Guard. Later in the war the Americans supplied many more M1917 rifles under Lend Lease.

To bring your question full circle, when US troops were attached to British brigades when they first arrived on the Western Front in 1917 they were equipped with British Lee Enfield Mark III rifles in order to standardise equipment.

I am sure Chris will be along soon to post some of his excellent photographs to illustrate my points.

Regards

TonyE

[centurion]

Back in the 1990s a large dump of .30 inch ammo was uncovered near the M1 in North Hertfordshire. Whilst no definite evidence was discovered as to how it got there it was assumed to have been for the Home Guard in the event of invasion and a German advance Northward.

[4thGordons]

I think Tony is correct and the rifles that were being referred to were the US built Rifle, .30cal M1917

However as Tony also says whilst training and sometimes operating with British divisions in 1917 and 1918 some AEF units were armed with SMLEs in .303

Coincidentally the first planned offensive action involving US troops took place 94 years ago today (July 4th 1918) when a relatively small number of soldiers of the Illinois National Guard 33rd Division ( 4 companies of 131st/132nd Infantry) participated in the attack by Australians at Hamel. Originally a larger US contribution had been planned but Pershing withdrew his permisson at a late hour leaving only a much smaller group who were already in the front lines.

The American units were highly praised for their contribution and a little later were inspected by the King who decorated some of the participants.

There are a couple of pictures of this event which show the 33rd Div soldiers armed with SMLEs (but using their own US pattern leather slings)

Chris

[Lt Colonel Gerald Smyth]

I think Tony is correct and the rifles that were being referred to were the US built Rifle, .30cal M1917

However as Tony also says whilst training and sometimes operating with British divisions in 1917 and 1918 some AEF units were armed with SMLEs in .303

Coincidentally the first planned offensive action involving US troops took place 94 years ago today (July 4th 1918) when a relatively small number of soldiers of the Illinois National Guard 33rd Division ( 4 companies of 131st/132nd Infantry) participated in the attack by Australians at Hamel. Originally a larger US contribution had been planned but Pershing withdrew his permisson at a late hour leaving only a much smaller group who were already in the front lines.

The American units were highly praised for their contribution and a little later were inspected by the King who decorated some of the participants.

There are a couple of pictures of this event which show the 33rd Div soldiers armed with SMLEs (but using their own US pattern leather slings)

Chris

Ah I see, I always thought that the characters on Dad's Army used Canadian Ross rifles but actually they use these ones which is some impressive historical accuracy

[TonyE]

The interesting thing about the rifles used in Dad's Army is that in the title sequence they are carrying WWI Bannerman rifles.

Bannerman was a Scottish born American military surplus dealer who amassed a huge amount of hardware as well as a fortune. When WWI started he donated 1,000 rifles to the British military. These were a hybrid Bannerman had made from re-heat treated reject M1903 Springfield receivers with a .303 inch barrel and were generally unserviceable. He had the receivers stamped with a mailed fist clutching the Scottish saltire.

Most were immediately relegated to DP use but did see some service in training the New Armies.

Regards

TonyE

[chrislock]

What an incredible place this is. Thank you guys!!

[Lt Colonel Gerald Smyth]

Yeah, this is some hardcore expertise!

[Joe Sweeney]

The answer to use of Old British and Canadian weapons by the US for training in WW2 is yes. I actually had a soldier of mine find a 03 LE bayonet at the NTC at California in 86 during a police sweep--It was in very good condition.

Also US formations used the SMLE in action in the Great War:

The equipping of US divisions by the British Army was a serious matter. It initially came into play with what would be called the 6 Division plan, later 10 Divisions actually fell under it. The agreement basically stated that Britain would supply enough shipping for 6 (later 10) complete US divisions if these served on the British front. Eventually the 77^th, 82d, 35^th, 28^th, 4^th, 30th, 27th, 33d, 78^th, and 80^th US Divisions all were part of this scheme and received SMLE’s at one point or another. The US 37^th, 91^st and 92 Division was not part of this plan but served in the British sector for a time.

It was basically a disaster from the beginning and caused much bad feelings amongst the AEF towards the British. Prior to the agreement Britain declared no shipping would be available. However, shipping might be found for individual battalions that could be incorporated into British Divisions. Pershing soundly rejected this proposal. When Britain put forth the counter proposal that she could supply enough shipping for 6 Divisions, if they served on the British front, Pershing is noted as sarcastically remarking about the miraculous appearance of what had been non-existent shipping. Not a good way to start a working relationship.

Eventually several modified agreements were reached that stated that the training of six, later 10, American divisions with the British will be carried out in three periods:

Period A Preliminary training out of the line.

Period B Attachment to British troops in the line.

Period C Advanced training by regiments in a back area.

After Period C has been completed regiments should be ready to go into the line and

take over a sector as part of British division who will withdraw a brigade to make room

for them.

This effort did not work. As most of the US Divisions were withdrawn from the British sector long before the training was completed due to various reasons e.g, real world contingencies, US complaints the British troops assigned to train in phase A (B1 Divisions) were sub standard and battle fatigued, and the use of US troops with out US permission (Hamel incident etc.)

Below are extracts from the UNITED STATES ARMYIN THE WORLD WAR, 1917-1919

Training and Use of American Units With the British and French

Volume 3.

FROM: Lt. Col. George S. Simonds, General Staff 1 March 1918

TO: Chief of Staff, A. E. F.

1. As a result of the preliminary conferences and those, which have been held since my arrival, the following points have been agreed upon with regard to the supply and equipment of the six divisions to be brought to the British front:

(a) American troops will arrive with equipment C except transportation, machine guns, automatic rifles, Stokes mortars, and 37-mm. guns.

( The British will furnish for the duration of the period on this front, transportation both motor and animal, including rolling kitchens and the necessary carts of various types: Vickers and Lewis guns in place of our machine guns and automatic rifles: and 3” Stokes mortars.

© Our Ordnance Department will obtain from the French the 37-mm. guns with the necessary ammunition and appurtenances.

(d) The British C-in-C has approved the proposition of turning over to us permanently all animal transportation and has requested from the British War Office authority to do so, this question remains unsettled until reply is received. Motor transportation cannot be turned over permanently.

(e) The British rifle and ammunition will be used. American rifles and ammunition brought over will be stored at suitable places, presumably in the training areas. They cannot furnish pistols.

(fl Ammunition supply, except pistol and 37-mm.. will be handled by the British as for their own troops.

(g) Bombs, grenades, rockets, and flares: same as (f).

(h) The British will provide all subsistence and replacements of clothing. The rum ration will be omitted.

(i) The British will furnish the necessary mounts and mounted equipment.

(k) It is understood that the artillery, including the ammunition tram and trench mortar battery, will be first sent to the American front and for the present no arrangements are being made for them here. With regard to the small arms ammunition supply, which is normally handled by our divisional ammunition tram, the British trains will take that over during the stay of our infantry here, or until our artillery is brought to this front.

----------------------------------------------------------

No. 52-A

0. BJ2196

[Extract]

The prospective arrival of additional American divisions will necessitate a recasting of the arrangements now in vogue for training these divisions.

At present the following cadre divisions are employed with American divisions as under:

16th Division with the American 4th Division in the Samer area

30th Division with the American 35th Division in the Eu and Gamaches area

34th Division with the American 28th Division in the Lumbres area

39th Division with the American 77th Division in the Recques area

66th Division with the American 82d Division in the St-Valery area

Arrangements will now have to be made to provide a supervising establishment and a training staff for the American 27^th, 30^th, 33d, 78th and 80th Divisions. Under the new scheme for the formation of Anglo-American divisions which is now being considered, it is proposed that 2 British brigade staffs and 8 battalion training staffs should proceed with the American divisions to the southern training areas. In order to provide a supervising establishment and battalion training staffs for the additional American divisions without forming new staffs, it is proposed to utilize the spare brigade staffs and battalion training staffs of the divisions already detailed with American formations, supplemented by battalion training staffs from B1 Divisions, and to move these brigade staffs and battalion training staffs into the new areas to which American divisions will be directed on arrival. This will involve the following arrangements being made:

One brigade staff and 4 battalion training staffs of the 39th Division to the Eperlecques area to train the American 30th Division.

One brigade staff and 4 battalion training staffs of the 34th Division to an area west of the Lumbres to train the American 78th Division.

One brigade staff and 4 battalion training staffs of the 66th Division to the Rue area to train the American 27th Division.

One brigade staff and 4 battalion training staffs of the 30th Division to Hallencourt area to train the American 33d Division,

One brigade staff and 4 battalion training staffs of the 16th Division to an area to be selected later to train the American 80th Division. This will involve the transfer of 2 battalion training staffs to each of the 30th and 66th Divisions, and 5 battalion training staffs to each of the 16th and 34th Divisions

from the 39th Division (1). 40th Division (6) and 59th Division (7).

Each of the above brigade staffs will be affiliated to their respective divisions and will be assisted insofar as is necessary by the divisional staffs of those divisions.* * *

May [22], 1918.

C. G. S..

Chief, General Staff.

Joe Sweeney

[Lancashire Fusilier]

The U.S. 107th Infantry ( 27th Division ) WW1 Memorial in New York, accurately shows the U.S. troops carrying Lee-Enfield rifles.

The 27th's Divisional Records show they exchanged their M1917 rifles for Lee-Enfields on June 14, 1918.

LF