I.D. this Austrian artillery bayonet?

[Tom W.]

Any ideas?

[calibre792x57.y]

Sabelbajonett M73 for the Infanterie-und-Jager Gewehr Modell 1873/77 Werndl 11 mm rifle, being worn as a sidearm., although they are occasionally found with bushed muzzle rings and shortened blades for use with more modern rifles. The rifle was obsolete by the War and could not be converted to the current service round as the action was too weak, although the Austrians still had large stocks. - SW

[Tom W.]

Sabelbajonett M73 for the Infanterie-und-Jager Gewehr Modell 1873/77 Werndl 11 mm rifle, being worn as a sidearm., although they are occasionally found with bushed muzzle rings and shortened blades for use with more modern rifles. The rifle was obsolete by the War and could not be converted to the current service round as the action was too weak, although the Austrians still had large stocks. - SW

Thanks very much. That identifies the guy as a member of Gebirgshaubitzdivision von Marno in Jerusalem.

[gyuresz]

Thanks very much. That identifies the guy as a member of Gebirgshaubitzdivision von Marno in Jerusalem.

May I ask you: how do you know that he was a member of that division? Do you know more about his identity, maybe you have also the whole picture of him?

I am curious, because I am very interested in the history of the Austro-Hungarian troops serving in Palestine during the Great War.

Thank you,

gyuresz

[Tom W.]

May I ask you: how do you know that he was a member of that division? Do you know more about his identity, maybe you have also the whole picture of him?

I am curious, because I am very interested in the history of the Austro-Hungarian troops serving in Palestine during the Great War.

Thank you,

gyuresz

The photo was taken in Jeruslam in 1916. At that point the only Austrians in Palestine were artillerymen and motor-transport troops.

Here's a photo of the men marching into the Jeruslam. Note the bayonets, M. 95 carbines, and mountaineering rucksacks, which identify them as Gebirgshaubitzdivision von Marno.

http://commons.wikim..._Zion,_1916.JPG

[gyuresz]

The photo was taken in Jeruslam in 1916. At that point the only Austrians in Palestine were artillerymen and motor-transport troops.

Here's a photo of the men marching into the Jeruslam. Note the bayonets, M. 95 carbines, and mountaineering rucksacks, which identify them as Gebirgshaubitzdivision von Marno.

http://commons.wikim..._Zion,_1916.JPG

Thank you for sharing the picture, it is a very nice one! You call the file "Hungarian.jpg" - is it because you know that the person is an ethnic Hungarian, or is it just based on the fact that most soldiers serving in the Marno division were in fact Hungarians? Do you happen to know his name or anything more about him? I am trying to make research on the personal histories of the members of that division, so I am very interested in this kind of details.

I would not say that the only Austrians in Palestine in 1916 were the Marno division. There was also the military hospital at the Ratisbonne Monastery in Jerusalem, the "Reservespital in Jerusalem", with more than 100 men serving there since August 1916. A significant part of this crew were ordinary soldiers performing guard duties for the hospital and ocasionally serving as cortege for military funerals in Jerusalem. However I do not know whether they also used the above bayonet.

On the other hand - at least according to Peter Jung - there were no Austrian motor-transport troops at all in Palestine before sommer 1917. Until then the guns were transported by animal-drawn carts, while supplies arriving from North of the Taurus mountain were reloaded to German motor vehicles, with Austrian personel accompanying them.

gyuresz

[Tom W.]

Thank you for sharing the picture, it is a very nice one! You call the file "Hungarian.jpg" - is it because you know that the person is an ethnic Hungarian, or is it just based on the fact that most soldiers serving in the Marno division were in fact Hungarians? Do you happen to know his name or anything more about him? I am trying to make research on the personal histories of the members of that division, so I am very interested in this kind of details.

I would not say that the only Austrians in Palestine in 1916 were the Marno division. There was also the military hospital at the Ratisbonne Monastery in Jerusalem, the "Reservespital in Jerusalem", with more than 100 men serving there since August 1916. A significant part of this crew were ordinary soldiers performing guard duties for the hospital and ocasionally serving as cortege for military funerals in Jerusalem. However I do not know whether they also used the above bayonet.

On the other hand - at least according to Peter Jung - there were no Austrian motor-transport troops at all in Palestine before sommer 1917. Until then the guns were transported by animal-drawn carts, while supplies arriving from North of the Taurus mountain were reloaded to German motor vehicles, with Austrian personel accompanying them.

gyuresz

Unfortunately Jung is often wrong. He confuses the K.u.K. gas battalions with the flamethrower battalion, for example.

This site says there were indeed Austrian motor-transport troops in Palestine in 1916:

http://www.germancol...uniforms.co.uk/

In my photo, the collar is Hungarian, and so is the writing on the back of the card. It's difficult to discern, but he may have an unofficial shoulder badge that is similar to the infantry-gun badge. If so, the badge could be embroidered.

[gyuresz]

Well, a very touching message from the front. Thank you for sharing it.

Unfortunately Jung is often wrong. He confuses the K.u.K. gas battalions with the flamethrower battalion, for example.

This site says there were indeed Austrian motor-transport troops in Palestine in 1916:

http://www.germancol...uniforms.co.uk/

With all due respect, the site you cite is mistaken. It says:

Figure 3 is based on a photograph of an Austro-Hungarian Transport Driver of the the "2. Autokolonne Türkei" taken in Diarbekhir, Palestine in 1916."

The problem is that Diarbekhir (today Diyarbakır) has never been in Palestine, it is in Turkey proper, way North of Syria, it is simply a mistake to call it Palestine.

Regarding Peter Jung, I do not rely exclusively on him: Vice-Field Marshal Pomiankowski also mentions in his memoires that all four Austrian "Kraftwagenkolonnen in der Türkei" operated in 1916 in Bozanti and Diarbekir, both located in the southern and southeastern Turkey of today. - Do you have other sources telling about Austrian motor-transport troops in Palestine in 1916?

[Tom W.]

Well, a very touching message from the front. Thank you for sharing it.

With all due respect, the site you cite is mistaken. It says:

Figure 3 is based on a photograph of an Austro-Hungarian Transport Driver of the the "2. Autokolonne Türkei" taken in Diarbekhir, Palestine in 1916."

The problem is that Diarbekhir (todayDiyarbakır) has never been in Palestine, it is in Turkey proper, way North of Syria, it is simply a mistake to call it Palestine.

Regarding Peter Jung, I do not rely exclusively on him: Vice-Field Marshal Pomiankowski also mentions in his memoires that all four Austrian "Kraftwagenkolonnen in der Türkei" operated in 1916 in Bozanti and Diarbekir, both located in the southern and southeastern Turkey of today. - Do you have other sources telling about Austrian motor-transport troops in Palestine in 1916?

No, I don't have any other sources.

If the motor-transport troops weren't in Palestinine, that leaves artillerymen and men of the medical services, along with the guards you say they had.

We know the mountain artillerymen were mostly Hungarian, and from the photo of them entering Jerusalem with their mountaineering rucksacks and white-topped collars, we know they used the Sabelbajonett M73. He also has an open, pronged belt buckle, often used by artillerymen instead of infantry.

Therefore I conclude that this man is a member of Gebirgshaubitzdivision von Marno.