de Bange or not de Bange? (270mm Siege Mortar, Model 1885)

[Hoplophile]

I am wondering whether the 270mm siege mortar adopted by the French Army in 1885 properly qualifies as a member of the de Bange family.

[MikB]

Why would you doubt it?

Regards,

MikB

[bmac]

Yes. Mortier de 270 modele 1885 de Bange with a metal platform and chassis developed in 1891. There were 32 of them, it appears. According to my book the 'Family' de Bange consisted of Canon 80 mm 1877, 80 mm 1878, 90 mm 1877, 120L 1878, 155L 1877, 155C 1881, Mortier 220 1880, Mortier 270 1885.

[Hoplophile]

Thank you, Gentlemen, for your responses. I did not doubt that the 270mm siege mortar was of the "de Bange era." However, as Colonel de Bange had left the service of the French government before 1885 and was then working with private industry, I was wondering about the degree to which he was personally involved in the design.

[MikB]

Thank you, Gentlemen, for your responses. I did not doubt that the 270mm siege mortar was of the "de Bange era." However, as Colonel de Bange had left the service of the French government before 1885 and was then working with private industry, I was wondering about the degree to which he was personally involved in the design.

I thought that like most military date nomenclature the French system would use the date equipment was adopted rather than the date designed, so they could have presumably approved it after he'd left. I don't have any particular specialist knowledge, but most website hits obtained by reference to De Bange seem to consider the 270mm. mortar one of his.

I've only seen one or two unhelpful pictures of the thing, but it looks to me as if it could be a muzzle loader and therefore use of the De Bange obturator would appear pointless. I believe he had a full design system for developing artillery, but the obturator is the thing that caught on well beyond French boundaries, so that's what he's remembered for. In fact, I imagine I'm like many others in that that was all I knew about him until you asked the question...

Regards,

MikB

[CharlieBris]

I found a sketch of the 270mm De Bange at http://rosalielebel7...emedebange.html (attached). I don't recall seeing images of the 270mm Mortier with the

breech visible.

There were a number of different obturators around in 19th century e.g. the Elsternwick ring (a copper ring in front of the breech block), the Broadwell ring (a copper ring at the back of the breech which pressed onto a mild steel disk in a sliding breech block) but the De Bange obturator was superior to all of them for interrupted screw breeches and became the obturator of choice. Not all countries adopted interrupted screw breeches - German practice was to use a horizontal sliding wedge breech block with cartridge obturation.

Regards,

Charlie

[centurion]

I thought that like most military date nomenclature the French system would use the date equipment was adopted rather than the date designed, so they could have presumably approved it after he'd left. I don't have any particular specialist knowledge, but most website hits obtained by reference to De Bange seem to consider the 270mm. mortar one of his.

I've only seen one or two unhelpful pictures of the thing, but it looks to me as if it could be a muzzle loader and therefore use of the De Bange obturator would appear pointless. I believe he had a full design system for developing artillery, but the obturator is the thing that caught on well beyond French boundaries, so that's what he's remembered for. In fact, I imagine I'm like many others in that that was all I knew about him until you asked the question...

Regards,

MikB

It was a breech loader and used the de Bange system.

Edit I see Charlie got there first

[MikB]

Not all countries adopted interrupted screw breeches - German practice was to use a horizontal sliding wedge breech block with cartridge obturation.

Regards,

Charlie

Yes - I would think that the advantage of the screw-breech/De Bange obturator system was that you had no cartridge case obturator to load and to deal with after use, so turrets would not get cluttered - and the disadvantage the greater use of fancy precision machining in manufacture as compared to the simpler sliding wedge. How were fired cartridges processed in German naval or artillery practices? Even if they weren't discarded they'd presumably have to cool before repriming and re-use?

Regards,

MikB

[centurion]

Both the Krupp sliding wedge system and the de Bange system had their champions - but note both were originally developed for field guns not big naval guns. The Krupp system was first used in the Austro Prussian War and by the Russians against some of the 'stans. However there was a fault in the original system.

Krupp had designed a simple but seemingly effective breech mechanism that consisted of a steel wedge that slid in a transverse square duct across the breech of the gun. Applying a screw forced the wedge across the open breach and sealed it. It was a relatively simple mechanism and regarded as being ‘soldier proof’, always an important consideration for a battlefield weapon. The gun supplied by Krupp was light enough to accompany the infantry , fired a usefully heavy shell and outranged the smooth bore muzzleloaders still in use. He sold large quantities to the Prussian army and offered it to other governments. The British government decided against it (partly on the grounds of cost) but the Russians bought the gun.

In 1866 the Prussians were at war with the Austro Hungarian Empire. It became known as the Seven Weeks War so rapidly did the Prussian army demolish the Austro Hungarian forces. Victory was largely because of the superiority of the Prussian’s breech loading rifles which allowed their infantry to shoot and reload from kneeling or prone positions at their enemy who had to stand up to load their muzzle loading rifles. The Prussian cavalry and infantry swept the field but their artillery played an inglorious role mainly due to the conservatism of the high command who were very hesitant about committing their guns and held most of them in the rear in reserve. However Herr Krupp’s handy light field guns were brought into action. They certainly out ranged the Austro Hungarian guns and could be fired more rapidly, they also tended to explode and kill their gun crews. Krupp’s sliding wedge breech was faulty and prone to blow out. It is possible that Krupp’s guns killed more Prussian soldiers than Austro Hungarian. Worse was to come, the Russians who were fighting a number of small colonial wars in central Asia, had also been using the Krupp guns and with the same results. Krupp had to replace 600 field guns with more reliable models and if he had not had friends in high places (who kept him out of jail) the budding Krupp industrial empire would have died right then.As it was he had to flee to Switzerland

Krupp survived and within a couple of years was once more offering guns with a modified version of the sliding breech mechanism to all and sundry.

[CharlieBris]

Although Krupp guns are usually associated with sliding wedge breeches of various designs, Krupp was quite happy to supply clients with guns with interrupted screw breeches.

There is a Krupp U.S. patent from 1907 for a one-motion interrupted screw breech.

A batch of 75mm Krupp export guns was built for Argentina in 1909 with interrupted screw breeches. The Japanese seem to have preferred interrupted screw breeches - the 7.5cm Krupp M08 Gebrigskanone was built for the Japanese with an interrupted screw breech (75mm Type 41 Mountain Gun). Similarly the 15cm Type 38 Howitzer was a Krupp 15cm Feldhaubitze M09 with an interrupted screw breech. Afaik the Krupp interrupted screw breeches used cartridge obturation.

Regards,

Charlie