MG 08 modified as 'mountain machine gun'

[robert_sfl]

Hi all,

to me this looks like an MG 08 mounted on the modified tripod of a captured St. Étienne? On the rear "Geb. M.G." has been written on the picture which probably stands for Gebirgs M.G. - mountain machine gun. It would make sense to provide a lighter tripod capable of high-angle fire for the mountain environment.

Was this anything official or just a makeshift device?

This is a large picture with good detail, here is the full resolution for download: http://www.hinesley.de/geb_mg_2.jpg

Robert

[Retlaw]

Looks a bit dodgy, who operates the elevation wheel, and feeds the ammo belt, then think of all those empty cases being ejected onto the underside of the shield, they would pile up on his belly.

Retlaw

[centurion]

German mountain troops used air cooled machine guns (Madsen, Mondragon, Bergmann ) as they were light and also water in water cooling jackets often froze in the cold of the mountain environment. The MG08 was much too heavy to be hauled up mountains. Large heavy tripods and shields were certainly not used as adding weight. The tripod in the photo looks like the 1916 pattern tripod which could be used for AA work which I think is being demonstrated. The MG09 export model of the MG08 also came with a tripod as did the MG01 guns usd by the German Navy.

[Tom W.]

Hi all,

to me this looks like an MG 08 mounted on the modified tripod of a captured St. Étienne? On the rear "Geb. M.G." has been written on the picture which probably stands for Gebirgs M.G. - mountain machine gun. It would make sense to provide a lighter tripod capable of high-angle fire for the mountain environment.

Was this anything official or just a makeshift device?

It's a Hotchkiss tripod.

The gunner is wearing mountain boots, but the official Mountain Machine Gun Detachments wore Brandenburg cuffs, not Swedish cuffs, like this guy.

I'd say it's something cobbled together by a unit sent to fight in mountainous terrain prior to the introduction of air-cooled weapons. The M1895 service jacket would seem to indicate an early-war photo. Keep in mind that Austrian mountaineers used water-cooled Schwarzlose machine guns throughout the war.

At the beginning of the war, there were no dedicated German mountain troops, so they had no weapons specifically devised for mountain warfare.

[centurion]

You seem to assume that all a mountain gun has to do is fire uphill which is, to put it mildly, baloney. With that fitting it wouldn't be able to achieve a similar depression to fire down hill.

600 Madsen light air cooled machine guns were issued to the KuK Alpine troops in 1915 as the water cooled Schwarzlose was considered unsuitable for use against the Italian in the Alps

[robert_sfl]

Thanks for the thoughts!

>You seem to assume that all a mountain gun has to do is fire uphill which is, to put it mildly, baloney.

Really I am not placing any arguments for or against this gun. The writing says mountain M.G. as described, which need not be a precise statement just something the writer had heard. I am not defending that AA use seems like a good guess of this pose.

I thought it was a St. Étienne tripod because of the cross beam between the legs and the screw on the left (inclination adjustmen?) which is a very specific detail.

I never saw a picture of German mountain troops using Madsens, do you know a link? I have a picture of a Madsen group which appears to be one of the Musketen batallions. I thought that after the first batch of captured Madsen were used up they had to be equipped with other guns later on due to lack of replacements. I did not know that additional Madsen guns were actually imported.

[centurion]

Thanks for the thoughts!

>You seem to assume that all a mountain gun has to do is fire uphill which is, to put it mildly, baloney.

Really I am not placing any arguments for or against this gun. The writing says mountain M.G. as described, which need not be a precise statement just something the writer had heard. I am not defending that AA use seems like a good guess of this pose.

I thought it was a St. Étienne tripod because of the cross beam between the legs and the screw on the left (inclination adjustmen?) which is a very specific detail.

I never saw a picture of German mountain troops using Madsens, do you know a link? I have a picture of a Madsen group which appears to be one of the Musketen batallions. I thought that after the first imported batch of Madsen were used up they were equipped with 08/15 later on. I did not know that additional Madsen guns were imported for mountain use.

My baloney comment was in response to Tom Ws comments as was the point about the 600 Madsens going to the KuK (Austro Hungarian) mountain troops

The Musketen passed their Madsens on to the German Mountain troops. The Madsen proved to be a] prone to jamming because of the dirty conditions on the WF and b] provide insufficient fire power in the breakthrough blocking mode. It was considered that the Mountain troops would be operating in cleaner conditions and the style of warfare was different.

[bushfighter]

Robert

Many thanks for that good picture of the Madsens.

Harry

[Tom W.]

600 Madsen light air cooled machine guns were issued to the KuK Alpine troops in 1915 as the water cooled Schwarzlose was considered unsuitable for use against the Italian in the Alps

That's a hell of a lot of machine guns to use against one Italian. He must've been quite a fighter.

Here's a Swiss Maxim machine gun. Looks oddly... familiar somehow. I guess it was used only in the flatlands of Switzerland.

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/MG_11

[Tom W.]

My baloney comment was in response to Tom Ws comments as was the point about the 600 Madsens going to the KuK (Austro Hungarian) mountain troops

Ah. Your endearing and not-even-slightly pathological truculence got the better of you again, since I said nothing about firing uphill. I didn't even assume it. See, the way it works is that your thoughts are yours, while my thoughts are not known to you unless either I express them or you're a former remote viewer from the CIA's Stargate Project. If you're a typical CIA agent, that explains a lot about the state of the world.

My point was that early mountain troops would not have had any of the air-cooled weapons you mentioned. This is a mountain soldier, as indicated by his boots. He appears to be an early mountain soldier, as indicated by his M1895 field jacket. Clearly the Hotchkiss mount is lighter than the German sled mount. Notice, again, that I've said nothing about firing uphill. I'm not even thinking it.

The only baloney dropped into the thread was by you. I'm shocked--shocked--that this would happen.

[Tom W.]

I never saw a picture of German mountain troops using Madsens, do you know a link?

I have a photo in my collection. The unit is unidentified, but they're mountaineers, as revealed by the woolen socks and cleated boots.

[Tom W.]

Austrian Kaiserjäger with a captured Italian Vickers or Russian Maxim water-cooled machine gun on a tripod (hmmmm...) and an air-cooled Madsen.

These may have been the special Austrian mountain troops who didn't fight in the mountains so they wouldn't have to fire uphill.

[centurion]

Ah. Your endearing and not-even-slightly pathological truculence got the better of you again, since I said nothing about firing uphill. I didn't even assume it. See, the way it works is that your thoughts are yours, while my thoughts are not known to you unless either I express them or you're a former remote viewer from the CIA's Stargate Project. If you're a typical CIA agent, that explains a lot about the state of the world.

My point was that early mountain troops would not have had any of the air-cooled weapons you mentioned. This is a mountain soldier, as indicated by his boots. He appears to be an early mountain soldier, as indicated by his M1895 field jacket. Clearly the Hotchkiss mount is lighter than the German sled mount. Notice, again, that I've said nothing about firing uphill. I'm not even thinking it.

The only baloney dropped into the thread was by you. I'm shocked--shocked--that this would happen.

I'll ignore the personal attack and comment on the issue

The Bavarian Schneeschuh Bataillon and the Württemberg Schneeschuh Kompanie were formed in November 1914 they later became the nucleus for the 3rd Jaeger Regiment which grew into the Alpenkorps. If they were going to use the MG 08 in the mountain snows they would have probably used the original sledge mount (the clue's in the name). However I believe that initially they had no machine guns. Later the Gebirsjager-Maschiengewer-Abteilungen were issued Madsens and some Bergmanns and Mondragons also appear to have been used. Eventually MG08/15s were used but did not entirely replace the air cooled guns because of the problem of freezing water in the jackets.

BTW I wouldn't bet on his boots as a definitive clue as believe that these were not introduced until late 1915 early 1916 and air cooled guns were certainly available then.

[Tom W.]

I'll ignore the personal attack and comment on the issue

The Bavarian Schneeschuh Bataillon and the Württemberg Schneeschuh Kompanie were formed in November 1914 they later became the nucleus for the 3rd Jaeger Regiment which grew into the Alpenkorps. If they were going to use the MG 08 in the mountain snows they would have probably used the original sledge mount (the clue's in the name). However I believe that initially they had no machine guns. Later the Gebirsjager-Maschiengewer-Abteilungen were issued Madsens and some Bergmanns and Mondragons also appear to have been used. Eventually MG08/15s were used but did not entirely replace the air cooled guns because of the problem of freezing water in the jackets.

BTW I wouldn't bet on his boots as a definitive clue as believe that these were not introduced until late 1915 early 1916 and air cooled guns were certainly available then.

So, the rule is you get to denigrate and mock but if I respond in kind, it's a "personal attack." Got it. Always nice to know the rules.

"Probably." That indicates an assumption. So, you attribute an assumption to me--one I didn't actually make--which means I'm full of baloney. You, however, get to make assumptions. Another rule I didn't know, but now I do. I'm keeping notes here so I won't run afoul of these many regulations.

In actual fact, most Jäger battalions and the 82nd Division had trained in mountain warfare prior to the war in Colmar, so some mountaining gear was available. Commerical boots were also bought and used, and existing M1912 ankle boots were converted. Official mountain boots were not specified until October of 1917, not 1915 or 1916. As you know, the Germans engaged in mountain warfare long before October of 1917, which means they used mostly commercially available footwear.

The first light machine-gun detachments were organized in July of 1916. Prior to that date, light air-cooled machine guns were not widely available to mountain troops such as the Alpine Corps, which was established May 21, 1915. First you argued that mountain troops used air-cooled light machine guns, then you said if mountain troops were going to use machine guns, they would've used the sled mount. I'm confused, but that's okay. I often am, as you can see by my lack of knowledge of the rules of what consititutes personal attacks and assumptions.

The evidence is pretty convincing that this is an improvised mountain machine gun. Admitting it won't kill you. Really.

[Tom W.]

Landsturm machine-gun squad armed with an MG08 water-colored weapon in the snow. Loads of snow in this photo.

"You fight the war with what you have."

"Adapt, improvise, and overcome."

[robert_sfl]

Nice pictures, also the first water-colored gun that I see!

Is that a Russian M1910 mount?

[Tom W.]

Nice pictures, also the first water-colored gun that I see!

Is that a Russian M1910 mount?

Yup. The Germans often replaced the sled mount with the wheeled Russian mount to make the gun more mobile.