Gordon Kilts, tartan and pleating?

[Tim P]

Have an offer of a gordon Kilt, very cheap. Cheap is expensive however if it is no use......it is pleated to the sett but it has got me thinking.. firstly, I see pictures of ww1 gordons where the distinctive yellow seems absent and I can only speculate that there was an early use of 42nd tartan?

Second, during ww1, was pleating to the sett a military practice?

[4thGordons]

Have an offer of a gordon Kilt, very cheap. Cheap is expensive however if it is no use......it is pleated to the sett but it has got me thinking.. firstly, I see pictures of ww1 gordons where the distinctive yellow seems absent and I can only speculate that there was an early use of 42nd tartan?

Second, during ww1, was pleating to the sett a military practice?

The "absence of the stripe" is a funtion of the type of film used. There are several lengthy threads on this but basically:

The standard film/plates in use during the WWI period was what is known as "orthocromatic" it responded best to the blue/green end of the light spectrum and how it rendered colours is affected by this. Yellows and reds at the opposite end of the spectrum were therefore rendered dark - and th the stripe in the Gordon tartan does not show up. If the exposure on the picture is light enough that you can see the sett you can see the yellow line but it is rendered darker than the surrounding blue/green. This is also why photographs of this period can sometimes make skin tones look darker. Modern B&W films are PANCHROMATIC. They respond to the full light spectrum rendering colours more "realistically" and the yellow strip shows up as lighter. Panchromatic film was available at the time of the great war but was very uncommon. It became the norm in the late 20 /30s I beleive.

There are a couple of previous threads where we played around with this trying to recreate the effect digitially. It is particularly noticeable on medal ribbons where the combinations of colours are important for identification but the Gordon tartan was what got me interested in it.

Chris

[Muerrisch]

I have recently concluded that there is a case to be made for the "red/yellow shows dark" and "green/blue shows pale" generalisations to be qualified by noting the apparent effect of pastel yellows [with a lot of white] and "black blues", ie blue with a lot of black pigment. I surmise these may account for some of the oddities, like yellow facing sometimes rendering as pale.

[Tim P]

that explains much. Thank you.. Was the practice of pleating to the stripe in effect in ww1?

[4thGordons]

I have recently concluded that there is a case to be made for the "red/yellow shows dark" and "green/blue shows pale" generalisations to be qualified by noting the apparent effect of pastel yellows [with a lot of white] and "black blues", ie blue with a lot of black pigment. I surmise these may account for some of the oddities, like yellow facing sometimes rendering as pale.

Agreed - and in addition I suspect it would be influenced by the colour temperature of the lighting of the image. Artificial flash light vs sunlight etc flash lighting being "bluer" and natural lighting being "warmer - yellows and reds"-- this (today known as colour cast) will also influence the rendering of colours.

I suspect the list of qualifying comments could be lengthy!

Chris

[KGB]

There was a Gordon "3 stripe yellow/gold" but not for military use.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Have an offer of a gordon Kilt, very cheap. Cheap is expensive however if it is no use......it is pleated to the sett but it has got me thinking.. firstly, I see pictures of ww1 gordons where the distinctive yellow seems absent and I can only speculate that there was an early use of 42nd tartan?

Second, during ww1, was pleating to the sett a military practice?

Tim,

Here is a good coloured photograph of the WW1 Gordon Highlander's tarten kilt, also a black and white photograph of the kilt being worn.

Hope this helps.

Regards,

LF

[steven belfast]

Anyone hazard a guess at the year of this image

[4thGordons]

Anyone hazard a guess at the year of this image

I would suggest between 1889 and 1910 although the upper end is a sheer guess

I think the rifle is a Lee Metford MkI or I* and these were introduced in 1889/1892 respectively so it cannot IMHO be earlier than 1889.

(in case anyone is interested - the slinging arrangement from forward of the magazine to the muzzle was retained on MkI/I* Lee Metfords but the rear swivel moved to the Butt with the MkII and subsequent MLEs, also the magazine looks to be the narrower single stack 8rnd mag)

It is very difficult to put an upper end on it for obvious reasons BUT.... it does not look like the rifle has a Cleaning/Clearing rod fitted - these were abolished from British service in 1899 so that might move it forward a bit.

Magazine Lee-Enfields were introduced in 1895 but obviously there is a cross-over period and Metfords remained on charge as late as the WWI

If I had to guess I would suggest late 1900 +/-

Chris

[steven belfast]

Thanks chris, the photo is of my great great uncle who fought in south africa and in france with the gordons

[Ian Riley]

Then presumably if he has an entitlement to either of the Boer War medals, this photo will be prior to the Boer War or at least prior to the issue of the medals.

Ian

[steven belfast]

Then presumably if he has an entitlement to either of the Boer War medals, this photo will be prior to the Boer War or at least prior to the issue of the medals.

Ian

Ahhhhhhhh due to the fact he is not wearing them or there is no ribbons on his uniform, why didnt i think of that..............

[gordon92]

I would suggest between 1889 and 1910 although the upper end is a sheer guess

I think the rifle is a Lee Metford MkI or I* and these were introduced in 1889/1892 respectively so it cannot IMHO be earlier than 1889.

(in case anyone is interested - the slinging arrangement from forward of the magazine to the muzzle was retained on MkI/I* Lee Metfords but the rear swivel moved to the Butt with the MkII and subsequent MLEs, also the magazine looks to be the narrower single stack 8rnd mag)

It is very difficult to put an upper end on it for obvious reasons BUT.... it does not look like the rifle has a Cleaning/Clearing rod fitted - these were abolished from British service in 1899 so that might move it forward a bit.

Magazine Lee-Enfields were introduced in 1895 but obviously there is a cross-over period and Metfords remained on charge as late as the WWI

If I had to guess I would suggest late 1900 +/-

Chris

Chris,

The upper end of the dating would likely hinge on whether this is a regular or VB/TF soldier because of the Lee-Metford. If a regular, then I think your nominal 1900 date is on the mark. If a TF, then it could be as late as 1914 since some Lee-Metfords persisted in the Territorial battalions. There are no badges on the doublet to furnish further clues. The soldier is well-groomed and of confident bearing; so, if I had to guess, I would say a regular.

Mike

[4thGordons]

Chris,

The upper end of the dating would likely hinge on whether this is a regular or VB/TF soldier because of the Lee-Metford. If a regular, then I think your nominal 1900 date is on the mark. If a TF, then it could be as late as 1914 since some Lee-Metfords persisted in the Territorial battalions. There are no badges on the doublet to furnish further clues. The soldier is well-groomed and of confident bearing; so, if I had to guess, I would say a regular.

Mike

While I take your point in general, that MLMs would likely persist longer in V/TF battalions than with the regulars, however the vast majority of TF battalions had MLEs by the war.

To take the example I know best, by 1909 the 1/4 Gordons had MLEs but by the time they went to the war station in Bedford in 1914 they had CLLEs and in all the pictures of the TF Highlanders at Bedford I have yet to see a Metford. Metfords were dragged out for war service in the very early days but in my experience pictures showing them seem to be limited to 2 or 3rd line units or brand new Service Battalions in the early days of training.

In the context of this picture I think the absence medal ribbons (as Ian pointed out) are key.

Given that information I would think it likely that this picture was taken prior to shipping out to S.Africa

Chris