telaw Posted 13 August , 2004 Share Posted 13 August , 2004 Does anyone know what the uniform and cap badges for the foreign labour corps were? I'm particularly interested in what the Egyptian Labour Corps would have worn in France in 1917 and what there insignia, if any, would have been. Regards Tom PS Terry Denham has said that there was no distinctive cap badge for the Egyptian Labour corps, would that mean that they wore a standard Labour Corps badge of the time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ian Bowbrick Posted 13 August , 2004 Share Posted 13 August , 2004 You need to visit Ivor Lee's website, where you will find a photo of the South African Native Labour Corps. In my upcoming book I have several photos of members of the Chinese Labour Corps who were attached to the IAF in 1918. They are wearing British type unifrom and puttees with boots and some sort of native type cap. No badge is visible however. These units were entitled to the Bronze British War Medal an example of which is shown below. Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
telaw Posted 13 August , 2004 Author Share Posted 13 August , 2004 You need to visit Ivor Lee's website, where you will find a photo of the South African Native Labour Corps. In my upcoming book I have several photos of members of the Chinese Labour Corps who were attached to the IAF in 1918. They are wearing British type unifrom and puttees with boots and some sort of native type cap. No badge is visible however. These units were entitled to the Bronze British War Medal an example of which is shown below. Ian You raise an interesting point aboiut the BWM here, Ian. My interest in the ELC began a few years after I moved to Egypt. In previous WW1 research I'd come across the corps but never really considered then until the Cairo Times asked me to do a feature on them. Few Egyptians know that their countrymen served in the war, let alone that the figure was 100,000 and 10% of those fell. The Brits seem to have got it both ways. They paid low wage, gave little official recognition yet treated them as servicemen when it suited. If the BWM was an entitlement I wonder how many were actually awarded to the ELC? I further wonder how many of the 10,000 families received a pension. I further wonder how many injured ever got any kind of compensation? I don't wish in any way to sound anti-british or overreacting for the Egyptians but the whole endeavour seems to me that they lied to these guys, later kidnapped a lot and all in all gave them a pretty raw deal. (I suppose that's pretty well true of most who served in the war) Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeldr Posted 14 August , 2004 Share Posted 14 August , 2004 Tom, I made the following post on this forum in Jan 2003, however it should still be pos to access the Ha’aretz article via their archive. “Anyone interested in the wider aspects of the Sinai & Palestine campaigns may wish to take a look at the English edition of the Ha'aretz newspaper of Friday 17 Jan 2003. In the Week's End section there is an article by Joseph Alghazy entitled "Silent testimony of cruelty" which covers the Egyptian Labour Corps. Although principally concerned with their memorials, the author quotes from British and Egyptian sources and provides a useful sketch of the corps. Numbering 100,000 (per British figures) the poor treatment of these men was one of the main causes of the Egyptian insurrection of 1919, which in turn led to the recall of Allenby to Cairo, this time as High Commissioner. To see the article go to www.haaretz.com - then under Print Edition click on Weeks End - and once there click on ‘Silent testimony of cruelty’.” For some reason the treatment of these men was particularly poor, even when compared to other non-Europeans such as the Chinese who were employed by the British. No names appear on any memorials, suggesting that no records were kept Regards Michael D.R. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeldr Posted 14 August , 2004 Share Posted 14 August , 2004 This Australian picture [AWM B-1415] was taken on 10 Jan 1918 And is captioned “Men of the Egyptian Labour Corps unloading cargoes from surf boats near the outlet Nahr Sukreir” Not much sign of a uniform or badges I’m afraid Regards Michael D.R. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 14 August , 2004 Share Posted 14 August , 2004 No names appear on any memorials, suggesting that no records were kept Michael This does not tell the whole story. It is correct that the army appears not to have kept accurate rolls of the names of the men of the Egyptian Labour Corps. However, some names are known and their graves are marked by CWGC and the graves of the 'Unknowns' are maintained just as any others. The Egyptian Labour Corps has a CWGC memorial to commemorate the estimated 10,000 unknown ELC deaths. It is the Giza Memorial in Egypt. True - it does not bear any names but it is all that could be done in the circumstances. CWGC would welcome any names if anyone has them! The Giza Memorial is unique amongst CWGC memorials to the missing in that it takes the form of a practical building. It was built as a memorial hospital. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeldr Posted 15 August , 2004 Share Posted 15 August , 2004 Terry, I should have made it clear that my remarks referred to that area covered by Mr Alghazy’s newspaper article ie Israel/Palestine I do not blame the CWGC, who were it seems, let down by the lack of information provided by the British Army A while back you took part in an interesting thread regarding the work in progress by a Chinese Pal who is attempting to correct the roll of the Chinese Labour Corps. The fact that names are available for him to work from is a credit to that Corps’ officers, who it seems, carried out their duties to the full. As a result of that dedication, these men who died far from home, while serving the British Army, have had their sacrifice recognized in the same way as any other Tommy Unfortunately the same cannot be said for the many thousands of fallen of the Egyptian Labour Corps, which appears to have been singularly unlucky in the quality of the officers allocated to it by the British Army. The Chinese example proves that, given the will, it was possible to work according to the book, even under very trying conditions. Regards Michael D.R. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeldr Posted 15 August , 2004 Share Posted 15 August , 2004 Tom, You might also be interested in the following, which is taken from ‘The Palestine News’ which described itself as “The weekly newspaper of the Egyptian Expeditionary Force of the British Army in occupied enemy territory. Published every Thursday at GHQ, First Echelon, Palestine. Price: One Egyptian Piastre.” “11 July 1918 There are few units that are better known in the Force, and of which less has been seen in print, than the Egyptian Labour Corps….At Deir El Belah, which was then the advanced base, a strong detachment was continuously at work unloading ships in the offing, and bringing the supplies ashore in our surf boats manned by E.L.C. boatmen specially recruited for the purpose. Similar work was performed at Sukerier, near Jaffa, as soon as our command of the coast had been thus far extended…..After Gaza, there came another great forward movement of the Egyptian Labour Force into Palestine. Railways and roads were the chief objects towards which labour was directed. No time was lost in setting about the extension of the main line of railway towards Jaffa. With thousands of labourers at work the new track made its way rapidly up the coast, while in the meantime a network of roads had been prepared and was being maintained by the Egyptian Labour Corps in order to facilitate the adequate provision of supplies and ammunition to the troops operating at so great a distance from the base…..Many miles of quagmire that harassed the progress of our troops in the winter advance have been converted into motor roads that not a few rural councils at home might envy. And the work still goes on.” [as quoted by B. Z. Kedar in his ‘The Changing Land Between the Jordan and the Sea’] Regards Michael D.R. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Birch Posted 15 August , 2004 Share Posted 15 August , 2004 Few Egyptians know that their countrymen served in the war, let alone that the figure was 100,000 and 10% of those fell. How did so many come to die? They were presumably not battle casualties, as Labour Corps men did no serve in the trenches. There were random casualties from shelling, bombing etc but 10% seems a lot. I seem to recall that there is a cemetry near Boulogne with a number of ELC men buried there, the victims of a bombing raid. Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 15 August , 2004 Share Posted 15 August , 2004 Michael No problem. I did not take your post as any sort of criticism of CWGC and I agree with your point that these men were badly treated by the authorities in Egypt by not even having their names recorded in full. It is a very sad footnote to operations in that theatre. I was actually refering to Israel when I said there were named graves to some of these men. However, the vast majority will remain unknown forever both in Israel and elsewhere. It is strange that you mention the earlier thread on the CLC as that lead to regular exchanges between myself and our Pal in Hong Kong on the subject and to a miniscule input from myself into his research. As we speak, I am awaiting a package by snail mail from Hong Kong containing the fruits of his now completed research to see how we can take it forward. There appear to be a number of CLC men missing from CWGC files and there are also a number of inaccurate names which need amending. The earlier thread actually played a part in getting him and CWGC together so that their two research projects on the CLC hopefully could come together. Tim I suspect that most of these died of illness in the generally poor conditions in the area which afflicted locals and Europeans alike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ian Bowbrick Posted 15 August , 2004 Share Posted 15 August , 2004 Few Egyptians know that their countrymen served in the war, let alone that the figure was 100,000 and 10% of those fell. How did so many come to die? They were presumably not battle casualties, as Labour Corps men did no serve in the trenches. There were random casualties from shelling, bombing etc but 10% seems a lot. I seem to recall that there is a cemetry near Boulogne with a number of ELC men buried there, the victims of a bombing raid. Tim Tim, Sickness not only due to the poor conditions but also the weather - cold and rain. The medal I scanned above was issued to a member of the SANLC. I purchased it from the family and at the same time was shown a letter, which when translated spoke about the cold and what snow was......... Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Pete Wood Posted 15 August , 2004 Share Posted 15 August , 2004 It has always struck me as strange that the Chinese Labour Corps got a BWM (Bronze) and, if a CLC member died, his next of kin got a bronze memorial plaque (cast with his number and not his name) and scroll. Yet the Egyptian Labour Corps, and other labourers (worldwide) got nothing....?? Why, for example, was there an apparent difference in recognising the work, and next of kin (where applicable), of the Egyptian and Chinese labourers....?? Did the War Office believe one nationality (China) was more worthy than another?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ian Bowbrick Posted 16 August , 2004 Share Posted 16 August , 2004 Yet the Egyptian Labour Corps, and other labourers (worldwide) got nothing....?? Pete, Labourers from the High Commission Territories of Basutoland and Bechuanaland who served with the SANLC and Maltese Labour Corps received Bronze BWMs as well as the Chinese. I do not the situation for Labourers from Fiji, Seychelles & Bermuda. As for plaques and scrolls, I know someone who claims to own a plaque to a member of the SANLC, but have not seen it and cannot substantiate the claim. More info can be obtained off-line if you want. Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
telaw Posted 16 August , 2004 Author Share Posted 16 August , 2004 Tom, I made the following post on this forum in Jan 2003, however it should still be pos to access the Ha’aretz article via their archive. Michael Thanks for the info. I searched the Haaretz site but to no avail so I've sent a mail asking for a copy of the article. here's so little info on the ELC that every snippet helps. Thanks again. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
telaw Posted 16 August , 2004 Author Share Posted 16 August , 2004 Tom, You might also be interested in the following, which is taken from ‘The Palestine News’ which described itself as “The weekly newspaper of the Egyptian Expeditionary Force of the British Army in occupied enemy territory. Published every Thursday at GHQ, First Echelon, Palestine. Price: One Egyptian Piastre.” The role of the ELC in Sinai, Palestine and adjacent areas seems to get some positive coverage. However reports on their activities in France and harder to find. One snippet I found in The Egyptian Gazette dated 7th Sept 1917 (at that time edited by British owners) quotes a letter apparently published in the local newspaper "Al Ahram" The letter is from Mohamed Amin Gouda to his uncle Ismail Effendi Omran and reads: "All labourers are well and very pleased too... Tell everyone who asks about the Egyptian labourers that all are very well here and staying in the best regions of France." The Egyptian Gazzette editorial comments: "This simple letter clearly proves that Egyptian Labourers in France are enjoying their stay in that country." Strange that the letter was published the day after 23 ELC were killed for refusing to work. Clearly Mohamed Amin Gouda was not based at Boulogne. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeldr Posted 16 August , 2004 Share Posted 16 August , 2004 I searched the Haaretz site but to no avail Tom, You're right; I too searched using the article's title and drew a blank However when I put in some of the first line [up until 1948 war] it came up If you can get a p/message to me with your e-mail address I will be happy to let you have a copy Regards Michael D.R. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ian Bowbrick Posted 16 August , 2004 Share Posted 16 August , 2004 However reports on their activities in France and harder to find. Tom, Have a look at this link Foreign Labour Corps Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
telaw Posted 16 August , 2004 Author Share Posted 16 August , 2004 I searched the Haaretz site but to no avail Tom, You're right; I too searched using the article's title and drew a blank However when I put in some of the first line [up until 1948 war] it came up If you can get a p/message to me with your e-mail address I will be happy to let you have a copy Regards Michael D.R. Thanks Michael, got the mail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeldr Posted 17 August , 2004 Share Posted 17 August , 2004 Tom, Many thanks for the acknowledgment; it’s nice to know the system works Terry, Very pleased to hear about the work on the CLC roll. Congrats to you and to our Pal in Hong Kong on a very worthwhile exercise Regards Michael D.R. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
telaw Posted 17 August , 2004 Author Share Posted 17 August , 2004 Every snippet helps. I found this in a passage from an essay/article by Cecil Sommers: "We have on board a detachment of the Egyptian Labour Corps, going home after the completion of their engagement in France; a bunch of chattering children in tattered khaki. This morning at boat stations, looking down at them, as they stood tightly packed together, while the O.C. ship made his tour, I would have given a lot to drop a penny down and see the result on their discipline. Off parade they are kept in order by a Military Policeman of wonderful appearance. A fez sits on his woolly hair. His face is coffee coloured and smiling. In his hand a large stick, which he uses unsparingly. His tunic started life as an ordinary drill one. It is anything but ordinary now. His legs are encased in a very old---though at one time ultra nuttish---pair of officer's breeches, much too small for him. On his bare feet are a pair of enormous boots without laces. When he wishes to chase anybody he steps out of his boots. They are simply there for effect." So the ELC wore khaki in France. Interestingly the date is 9th Dec 1917 so it seems likely that the ELC mentioned were the 73rd and 76th coys which are my main research at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Sweeney Posted 17 August , 2004 Share Posted 17 August , 2004 All, You may find the attached of some interest. Due to file size the attachment is coming in two messages: The attachment is GRO 2799 (10.11.17) as modified by GRO 2968 (16.12.17). This lists the Winter and summer scales of clothing issue to all Coloured Labour units supporting the BEF in France. These GRO's were issued by the QMG Branch of the BEF. All items listed were actually pattern sealed and manufactured in Britain for these units--if that article was unique. The RACD sealed many articles of uniform of the ELC to govern manufacture, supply and acceptance. Joe Sweeney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Sweeney Posted 17 August , 2004 Share Posted 17 August , 2004 ALL, Here is the last part of the GRO's Joe S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
telaw Posted 17 August , 2004 Author Share Posted 17 August , 2004 All, You may find the attached of some interest. Due to file size the attachment is coming in two messages: The attachment is GRO 2799 (10.11.17) as modified by GRO 2968 (16.12.17). This lists the Winter and summer scales of clothing issue to all Coloured Labour units supporting the BEF in France. These GRO's were issued by the QMG Branch of the BEF. All items listed were actually pattern sealed and manufactured in Britain for these units--if that article was unique. The RACD sealed many articles of uniform of the ELC to govern manufacture, supply and acceptance. Joe Sweeney Joe Many, many thanks for this information, it helps my research agreat deal. Now all I need are some photos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
christine liava'a Posted 18 August , 2004 Share Posted 18 August , 2004 Did they honestly expect these men from the tropics to survive in a European winter in that? I'm glad the ladies of Fiji supplied the FLC with pajamas, socks, underwear, &towels before they left and they had Australian uniforms as well as their Fiji Defence Force shirts and sulus. They may also have received sheepskin vests like the previous Fiji Contingents! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Pete Wood Posted 18 August , 2004 Share Posted 18 August , 2004 As for plaques and scrolls, I know someone who claims to own a plaque to a member of the SANLC, but have not seen it and cannot substantiate the claim. More info can be obtained off-line if you want. I heard from Ian about this plaque, yesterday. It is for an officer who was in charge of SANLC men. So as far as I can tell, the next of kin of SANLC did NOT receive a plaque - unless anyone out there knows different..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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