Muerrisch Posted 8 June , 2012 Share Posted 8 June , 2012 I know, I confess, that this question's answer is/are a date or dates later than 1919. BUT, please can some kind soul tell me when Foot Guards began to set up/ slash/ tailor their caps so that the peaks became nearly vertical? It may differ by regiments, as indeed I expect it did, as the Guards were involved and nothing with them is simple, but, please, any facts for me? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoppage Drill Posted 8 June , 2012 Share Posted 8 June , 2012 "Setting Up" started in mid-WW2 with the SD cap. It involved "pinching" the front of the headband to push the top in at both sides towards the front whilst the lower part retained the necessary oval shape to fit the head. This had the effect of pushing the peak downwards, without bending or "slashing" (more usually called "cutting" in the Brigade). It also had the effect of pushing forward the metal strip which supported the front of the crown. Have a look at Keneally VC's SD hat here:- http://en.wikipedia..../John_Kenneally The beret replaced the SD hat for infantry before more extreme alterations became common, but where the SD hat was retained, the "slashing" got barmier and barmier - look at Horse Guards and Kings Troop today. RMP retained the SD hat for a long time, until they got a red beret in the mid-'70's and whilst they went "pinching" mad, they never "slashed". The Guards forage caps - the No 1 dress cap elsewhere - started to get set up and cut when they started being worn again in the '50's. Guards tended to wear the forage cap far more than other regiments who would wear berets in similar situations. I have many pics of myself (lovely shoulders boyo ! Pull 'em back, pull 'em back) on IS duties in KD, 44 Patt or 58 Patt webbing and a forage cap. I have a photo of coming down the gangway off "Empire Ken" at Southampton in March 1956, slashed forage caps galore, but not too extreme. No 4's,(none of those FN's you said we got in 1954, Tony E ) greatcoats and the old white "Sea" kitbags (my SKB is still out in my garden shed, slowly dying). The style has become more and more ridiculously extreme - I actually feel embarrassed when I visit RMAS with foreign guests and we see Guards NCO's wearing simply mad objects on their heads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 9 June , 2012 Author Share Posted 9 June , 2012 Thank you very much: I have a 1941 photo Guards example: GG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoppage Drill Posted 9 June , 2012 Share Posted 9 June , 2012 Care to post it ?The 1941 photo ? Incidentally, at some point the Abbreviation "GGG" rather than "GG" was used for the Grenadiers, to avoid confusion with "CG" in handwritten or badly typed comms. Certainly the case from '50's to '70's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 9 June , 2012 Share Posted 9 June , 2012 I may be 'talking through my hat' but I thought that the short style of peak started much earlier, why I say this is, I keep thinking of a well known photo of General Sir Redvers Buller VC. I know he was KRRC and not Guards. I don't know a lot about uniforms and that was obviously a different pattern of cap. For what it is worth. khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoppage Drill Posted 9 June , 2012 Share Posted 9 June , 2012 I think that you are mixing up officers and OR's caps, khaki. Guards officers have a short peak on their SD caps, (think Darling in Blackadder) as do several other regiments, but as all Guards officers No 1 Dress caps, regardless of rank, have heavily braided peaks, there isn't much scope to reduce their size. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Sweeney Posted 10 June , 2012 Share Posted 10 June , 2012 I may be 'talking through my hat' but I thought that the short style of peak started much earlier, why I say this is, I keep thinking of a well known photo of General Sir Redvers Buller VC. I know he was KRRC and not Guards. I don't know a lot about uniforms and that was obviously a different pattern of cap. For what it is worth. khaki Khaki, The SD ORs Cap from 1905-1922 had a much smaller profile regardless of regiments. I have the Standing Orders of IG and CG, and have looked at the So for the other Regiments, for WWI and the most that was done to caps was the addition of a metal plate to push the crown up. Joe Sweeney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 10 June , 2012 Share Posted 10 June , 2012 I have enjoyed reading these posts and agree with the content and views of every one of them. I personally believe that the influence to cut the peaks in that way came from the old (pre-1902) staff cap that had a naturally short and semi-vertical (but not extreme) peak and that was heavily braided for both Staff Serjeants and Officers (and of course after 1881 Warrant Officers) that I believe first began to be issued on a phased replacement schedule around 1878-79, although the Staff Serjeants did not get theirs until a little later (Guards officers had theirs as early as 1874). The Sergeants Messes of the Guards used to be full of group photographs showing these smart and popular caps and it seems likely that when the cap was replaced from around 1905 by the shape we know now, there followed two world wars after which an aspiration to return to some form of perceived 'Victorian' smartness led to the modern caps being cut in an attempt to return to the old peaks general appearance. That is just my theory but I think it is entirely possible all the same. The similarities when looking at the shape of peak on the staff cap in old B&W photos is striking and no other forage cap had that feature before its introduction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 10 June , 2012 Share Posted 10 June , 2012 Front. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 10 June , 2012 Share Posted 10 June , 2012 And here is a Scots Guards QMS to illustrate my meaning. Interestingly, at that time the officers were wearing the same angle of peak in far more numbers than the SNCOs, as shown by the second image. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 10 June , 2012 Author Share Posted 10 June , 2012 I have the GG 1941 example photo in a Word document and am struggling to post it! GG depot 1941 pdf.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 10 June , 2012 Share Posted 10 June , 2012 (edited) And here is a rather fine Scots Guards Drill Sergeant that shows the pitch of the peak very well. Edited 8 August , 2023 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 10 June , 2012 Share Posted 10 June , 2012 I have the GG 1941 example photo in a Word document and am struggling to post it! That example appears to be reminiscent of a blocked trench cap with the concentric rings of reinforced stitching on both peak and head band. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 10 June , 2012 Author Share Posted 10 June , 2012 And here is a rather fine Scots Guards Colour Sergeant that shows the pitch of the peak very well. I think this is staff-sergeant ranking as CSgt so may be a drill-pig. Extra lace, and sword slings. Do you agree? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daggers Posted 10 June , 2012 Share Posted 10 June , 2012 What was the offence of 'logging a cap' which I seem to remember was on a par with slashing a peak, in c1952/3, when the Junior Leaders Regiment RA wore SD caps? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 10 June , 2012 Share Posted 10 June , 2012 (edited) On 10/06/2012 at 12:28, GRUMPY said: I think this is staff-sergeant ranking as CSgt so may be a drill-pig. Extra lace, and sword slings. Do you agree? I don't know enough about the Guards idiosncrasies of dress to be able to comment confidently. I know that in the Army in general CSgts were afforded the same dress distinctions as a 3rd Class staff-serjeant, but the sword belt and carriage and extra lace would indicate 1st or 2nd Class so your theory does sound entirely plausible. I enclose an officer of Grenadier Guards with the same sharp angle of peak. Edited 15 December , 2017 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 10 June , 2012 Share Posted 10 June , 2012 I may be 'talking through my hat' but I thought that the short style of peak started much earlier, why I say this is, I keep thinking of a well known photo of General Sir Redvers Buller VC. I know he was KRRC and not Guards. I don't know a lot about uniforms and that was obviously a different pattern of cap. For what it is worth. khaki These preceeding photographs are of the style of cap to which I referred above as worn by General Buller. khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 10 June , 2012 Share Posted 10 June , 2012 These preceeding photographs are of the style of cap to which I referred above as worn by General Buller. khaki Yes, they are known as the Staff Cap and began to replace the previous, lower crowned type of Staff Cap with horizontal peak (see enclosed image) from the mid 1870s on. You can see what a striking change the new semi-vertical peak was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 10 June , 2012 Share Posted 10 June , 2012 Thanks Frogsmile, Great examples, I hope the information is useful to Grumpy I have found it very interesting. khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilB Posted 10 June , 2012 Share Posted 10 June , 2012 Can someone enlighten me - what`s the horizontal bar on the left sleeve in the photo on post #11? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wardog Posted 10 June , 2012 Share Posted 10 June , 2012 Coldstream Guards private on page 2 of Field Service Headress 1902 to the present day by Chappell. picture is IWM Q 30211. States 1918 and to show a set up SD cap. Uniform looks tailored to me though and perhaps post Great War- black boots- boards in pack etc. Cap not slashed to post WWII standard though. Regards, Paul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 11 June , 2012 Share Posted 11 June , 2012 What was the offence of 'logging a cap' which I seem to remember was on a par with slashing a peak, in c1952/3, when the Junior Leaders Regiment RA wore SD caps? In Army terminology 'logging' means reporting and recording so I imagine that it was a charge of defacing the Queen's uniform that was prevalent and so recorded during inspections. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daggers Posted 11 June , 2012 Share Posted 11 June , 2012 That could be it. It is too long ago to remember in detail! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoppage Drill Posted 11 June , 2012 Share Posted 11 June , 2012 Phil - the horizontal bar on the left sleeve pibc post#11, denotes a recruit who is appointed "Squad Leader". It's a Guards Depot thing only, as far as I know. The old soft peak with stitching rows seems to have been retained by the Guards until WW2 - in addition to this example I have pics of 1WG moving up - on foot - in France in 1939, wearing the stitched peak SD hat, Service Dress and long puttees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilB Posted 11 June , 2012 Share Posted 11 June , 2012 Thanks, SD. I wasn`t aware that a single camp, rather than a regiment, was able to have its own sewn-on additions to battle dress. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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