MikeS0000 Posted 4 June , 2012 Share Posted 4 June , 2012 Hello Folks - Picked this up at a Pennsylvania Auction. Not sure of the time period, but think Great War era. The tip is spring-poaded and it is maker marked: “C.G. Conehilt Riflemaker” Appreciate any help in further identifying it. Best regards! - Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 4 June , 2012 Share Posted 4 June , 2012 Too late tonight, but I will try to find which Mark that is tomorrow. Regards TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 5 June , 2012 Share Posted 5 June , 2012 I think this is the Musket, Fencing MkX no1 (Musket, Fencing No2) initially approved in 1913 and with a minor modification again in 1915. I think the maker is probably CG BONEHILL Very nice find. They are not all that common in my experience. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 5 June , 2012 Share Posted 5 June , 2012 Identifying the exact Mark would need close examination, but it seems to be a "generic" Mark X as Chris says. it should be 5 ft. 3.25 in. long and weigh 9lbs.It was introduced in Aug 1913 by List of Change Para. 16547. In September 1915 LoC para. 17503 changed the nomenclature of this to "Musket, Fencing, Mark X, No.1" and introduced "Musket, Fencing, Mark X, No.2", which only differed from the former by small changes that made manufacture easier for non-arms makers. For example, the butt plate screws were a commercial thread and not the odd Enfield thread used on rifles and the top and bottom straps also used commercial screws. Bureaucracy is a wonderful thing in the middle of a war! Regards TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgardiner1418 Posted 5 June , 2012 Share Posted 5 June , 2012 TonyE, I have one in my collection marked No 3, please could you tell me how this differs from the No 2 and what was the date of its introduction. All the best, Paul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Bailey Posted 5 June , 2012 Share Posted 5 June , 2012 These were made well into WW2. I have a Webley & Scott Ltd version dated 1942. I've also seen one made by Greener. Mine is marked No 3 and has the letters S.P.T.S stamped in the wood in 3 places. Training School, Ship, Squadron?? John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 5 June , 2012 Share Posted 5 June , 2012 I think the No.3 must be either a WW2 or just pre-war introduction. I only have List of Changes up to about 1927 and there is no No.3 there. The last mention of Fencing Muskets I have is LoC Para. A421 which declared all marks apart from the Mark X No.1 and No.2 obsolete and instructs all units with earlier marks to return them to Depot in exchange for the Mark X. Regards TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgardiner1418 Posted 5 June , 2012 Share Posted 5 June , 2012 John & Tony, Thanks for that. The stamping on my one is faint I can just make out W W GREENER BIRMINGHAM, the No 3 is very clearly stamped but the date is a 1 quite clear two numbers very faint and 6 also very clear so I am going to assume its 1946 rather than 1916. All the best, Paul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David B Posted 5 June , 2012 Share Posted 5 June , 2012 Well isn't anyone going to say what they are used for ? I am assuming that they are used in bayonet practice for defence against a bayonet attack by opposing troops, but is that correct ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgardiner1418 Posted 6 June , 2012 Share Posted 6 June , 2012 David, Yes used for bayonet practice generaly but also like sword fencing they had tounaments to exercise the skill of bayonet fighting with the men dressed in padded gear and with a fencing style mask on both equipped with one of the above. All the best, Paul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David B Posted 6 June , 2012 Share Posted 6 June , 2012 Paul, V M T for that, I didn't realize that practice in bayonet figlting was taken to those lengths. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgardiner1418 Posted 6 June , 2012 Share Posted 6 June , 2012 David, Type "Bayonet Fencing Rifle" into Google then click on Images and go to the second page, there is a good photograph of a full set of Bayonet Fighting kit at The Buffs museum. Paul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Bailey Posted 6 June , 2012 Share Posted 6 June , 2012 John & Tony, Thanks for that. The stamping on my one is faint I can just make out W W GREENER BIRMINGHAM, the No 3 is very clearly stamped but the date is a 1 quite clear two numbers very faint and 6 also very clear so I am going to assume its 1946 rather than 1916. All the best, Paul. Paul I think it may be 1936 in your case as by 1946 the No 4 spike bayonet was the norm, thought of course it is just possible the 1907 was stll being trained with. However if this was being used for old fashioned bayonet fencing then 1946 may bestill possible. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgardiner1418 Posted 6 June , 2012 Share Posted 6 June , 2012 John, Yes 1936 does seem to make more sense given that the war had just ended. 36 didnt even come into my mind. Thank you, Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 6 June , 2012 Share Posted 6 June , 2012 A number of forces (for example the USMC) dropped bayonet fencing or duelling from bayonet training during WW2 and with the exception of the Soviets it was not a post war feature. This makes 1936 much more likely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeS0000 Posted 15 June , 2012 Author Share Posted 15 June , 2012 Many Thanks Gents! It arrived today and the marking were obscured by some old tape residue, it is marked... “C.G. Bonehill, Rifle Maker Birmingham” with the "X" below, "Broad Arrow" above and dated 1916. Forward of the marks are two Facing Broad Arrows. and the 'collar' has the -> and asterisk mark and a Birmingham Crowned Proof. Some wood missing at collar and it looks like it certainly saw some use, but functions well and I'm pretty pleased with it! +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Also, some additional info from the Gunboard's British Pub Forum, from DocAV and AlanD: The Two arrows Point on point mean that it was separated from the service (officially sold). These Fencing Muskets were made and used from early Martini -Henry times (if not before, in cap and ball period.) The Japanese , with their history of "Kendo" also had a similar (but not sprungloaded) Fencing rifle, on the form of the T30/38 rifle. They were still being made in the 1930s. The British also used delapidated MH rifles to fit a spring-loaded Point in the barrel, for similar "Fencing" Use. Regards, Doc AV +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ During October and November 1914, the War Office placed orders with five different firms for Fencing Muskets. The predominance of the orders went to W.W. Greener, Webley & Scott and C.G. Bonehill. The other two firms to receive orders were G Beaston & Sons Ltd, who defaulted on the contract without making any and E. R. Watts & Sons who were given a contract for 800 units at 50 a week on 10/11/14, they must have found it slow going as by 26/06/15 they had produced 632 and were 168 in arrears. I have yet to come across a fencing musket made by Watts, but there must be some out there some ware. Regards AlanD Sydney +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Best regards! -Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wardog Posted 16 June , 2012 Share Posted 16 June , 2012 I have an example with heavy round handguard and faint partial makers details-..... Heath & ....London Also stamped in wood UL London OTC. -University of London? Any further info. re manufacturer, age and Mark? Regards, Paul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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