m1895 bayonet ?

[Smokey in Oz]

Hi all,

Thanks to my son who came across this in a bulk lot of knives he purchased. I have, correct me if I'm wrong, a Hungarian manufactured Austrian m1895 bayonet (FGGY stamped on bayonet & scabbard) to suit the Manlicher rifle. I was wondering what the 64 04 on the crosspiece signifies. I expect this is the correct time period for this forum.

Cheers, Smokey.

[trajan]

The FGGY marks (on the frog stud and I assume on the ricasso also) are fine for this being WWI issue, but the electro-serial number on the crossguard signifies that this is probably in use by the post-WWII Bulgarian army. The Bulgarians apparently gots lots of these bayonets in the 1930's from the Czechs, who got loads after WWI. There should be another mark on the ricasso or pommel indicating who the bayonet was originally made for. So, let's see some photo's of the whole thing, clothed and naked - after all, it could just be a Romanian M1893 with the wider blade (but unlikey). Nice bayonet though!

Trajan

[Smokey in Oz]

_{Thanks for the quick reply Trajan. I expect this is what you're looking for, I believe it's an Austrian eagle.}

_{Also what appears to be the letter L on the tang and number 8 on the pommel............}

_{Thanks, Smokey.}

[trajan]

Can't help with the tang markings but yes, it looks to be a Budapest one made for the Austro-Hungarian army. But I'm pretty sure the electro-pencil serial number indicates Bulgarian use, as it is found on almost all the M1895's that I have seen for sale in Bulgaria. Also, I think I read somewhere that the larger cross-guard rivets indicate Bulgarian use: apparently the Bulgarians were still using these bayonets until the 1960's and many were given new larger rivets as the original ones were too small and the crossguard would separate from the blade. That aside, popular belief is that in terms of actual numbers produced, there were more 1895 Mannlicher bayonets in service in WWI than any other type - that belief is partly based on the numbers of countries using these (i.e., all thouse in the Austro-Hungarian Empire) but also (I think) on the evidence of the Steyr production figures. Have you seen Old Smithy's site on these bayonets? Try http://www.old-smithy.info/bayonets/Austrian%201895.htm There is also something on Gunboards Forum about these but I haven't had a chance to search for that yet.

Trajan

[shippingsteel]

_{I expect this is what you're looking for, I believe it's an Austrian eagle.}

This is the most common type of M1895 that is seen on the market, and I would class it as very late manufacture or reworking (almost "modern" in fact)

The electro pencil is a dead giveaway, and as Trajan says those extra heavy rivets are also signs of relatively latter day reworking, but the eagle is a clue.

The earlier made models are stamped with the 2 headed eagle which is the emblem of the A-H empire (Hapsburg), while post-war it only has the 1 head.!

Cheers, S>S

[trajan]

... but the eagle is a clue. The earlier made models are stamped with the 2 headed eagle which is the emblem of the A-H empire (Hapsburg), while post-war it only has the 1 head.!

Thanks S>S - I knew that I had recently seen something posted somewhere about the type of eagle and its significance re: dating these bayonets, and have just spent the last few minutes trying to find it!

TRajan

[Smokey in Oz]

Thanks for the ID guys, not a bad pickup for a freebie.

Smokey.

[trajan]

This is the most common type of M1895 that is seen on the market, and I would class it as very late manufacture or reworking (almost "modern" in fact)

The electro pencil is a dead giveaway, and as Trajan says those extra heavy rivets are also signs of relatively latter day reworking, but the eagle is a clue.

The earlier made models are stamped with the 2 headed eagle which is the emblem of the A-H empire (Hapsburg), while post-war it only has the 1 head.!

Cheers, S>S

Having just acquired another M 1985 with a rather faint frog stud marking which seems to be an Austrian eagle, I remembered that I had not found the source of information that SS used to make the above claim - so, SS, would you share it please?

Trajan

[trajan]

Having just acquired another M 1985 with a rather faint frog stud marking which seems to be an Austrian eagle, I remembered that I had not found the source of information that SS used to make the above claim - so, SS, would you share it please?

Trajan

I guess SS must have fathomed that when in doubt, use wikipedia! Where it states that: "The Austrian Empire had a two-headed eagle as its symbol. After the abolition of Austria-Hungary, Austria took as its symbol a one-headed eagle in the modern coat of arms of Austria."

[trajan]

_{Thanks for the quick reply Trajan. I expect this is what you're looking for, I believe it's an Austrian eagle.}

_{Thanks, Smokey.}

This is the most common type of M1895 that is seen on the market, and I would class it as very late manufacture or reworking (almost "modern" in fact)

The electro pencil is a dead giveaway, and as Trajan says those extra heavy rivets are also signs of relatively latter day reworking, but the eagle is a clue.

The earlier made models are stamped with the 2 headed eagle which is the emblem of the A-H empire (Hapsburg), while post-war it only has the 1 head.!

Cheers, S>S

Some corrections needed here! To begin with although SS is correct in associating the single-headed eagle with the Austrian Republic, which certainly used a single-headed eagle property mark from 1918-1934, it seems that the Austrians re-introduced a (highly stylised) double-headed eagle property mark between 1934-1938.

However, that is a moot point here as yours does seem to be a double-header, rather like this:

As for the Bulgarian electro-pencil mark and the larger cross-guard rivets, these certainly indicate refurbishment by the Bulgarians: but nobody seems to know exactly when these modifications were carried out, the M95 having continued in regular use with the Bulgarian army well into the 1950's and 1960's. Nonetheless, IIRC, it is believed that the bigger rivets were introduced after Bulgaria received stacks of M.95's from Austria between 1938-1940, when as a result of the Anschluss the Austrian army replaced its M95's with Gew.98's, the bigger rivets being considered more durable and stronger than the original smaller rivets. As for the electro-pencil serial marking, my understanding is that this was a post-WWII practice, as such marks are often found on K98 rifles that went into service with various countries behind the Iron Curtain

Trajan

[trajan]

This is the most common type of M1895 that is seen on the market, and I would class it as very late manufacture or reworking (almost "modern" in fact)

The electro pencil is a dead giveaway, and as Trajan says those extra heavy rivets are also signs of relatively latter day reworking, but the eagle is a clue.

The earlier made models are stamped with the 2 headed eagle which is the emblem of the A-H empire (Hapsburg), while post-war it only has the 1 head.!

Cheers, S>S

Just to allay any suspicions I was hoiking the one in my last post (the double-headed creature) out of the air, I should have of course noted its origin, which I do now at http://bajo.cz.sweb.cz/Bodaky_M95_121.htm#2.3.1 Staré značení: I am always happy to give sources, and sometimes forget, but will always supply them if asked!

They also show these two - a standard single-headed eagle of the Austrian Republic 1919-1934, and the highly stylised double-headed one used between 1934-1938:

The thing here is that, as SS knew when he made his post indicating a 'non-period' date for Smokey in Oz's bayonet, which started this thread, these M95's hung around for a long time - almost 100 years in some armies... It just takes a little bit more time to research the matter - and name the source - which helps us all in our discussions on this forum and show that the bayonet is probably WW1!

Trajan