pwdevilliers Posted 4 June , 2012 Share Posted 4 June , 2012 Could anyone help me in the dating of this Robert T Mole & Sons Scottish Pipers Dirk? I would also love to know to whom (military unit) it was issued to? There are stamps and markings on it that should help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Bailey Posted 4 June , 2012 Share Posted 4 June , 2012 These look to be inspection marks. B21 possibly being a Birmingham inspectors number. Not sure about the BR but it could be a second check. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 4 June , 2012 Share Posted 4 June , 2012 Could anyone help me in the dating of this Robert T Mole & Sons Scottish Pipers Dirk? I would also love to know to whom (military unit) it was issued to? There are stamps and markings on it that should help. If I saw these stamps on an enfield rifle they would be RSAF SPARKBROOK inspection stamps. IIRC BR was used by Sparkbrook from the mid 1890s to 1906 to indicate repair/conversion B is also a Sparkbrook inspection mark The numbers underneath refer to the individual inspector BSA used a script/italic B Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 4 June , 2012 Share Posted 4 June , 2012 Agree Chris, those are Sparkbrook (Birmingham) inspection stamps. The number refers to the individual inspector. Regards TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pwdevilliers Posted 5 June , 2012 Author Share Posted 5 June , 2012 Thank you for the responses Tony, IIRC and John. Here is another photo with more markings. Apparently the name Robert T Mole & Sons was only used for a few years during the 1870's. Could the 99 be a date stamp (1899)? What about the other numbers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 5 June , 2012 Share Posted 5 June , 2012 If dirks were marked in a similar way to bayonets then quite possibly that is an original issue date of 1899 which has been struck out and re-issued in 1918. However, I would expect there to be an apostrophe before the last two digits if they are dates and I cannot see any. Chris? Regards TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 5 June , 2012 Share Posted 5 June , 2012 Is this enlargement of the markings of any help - all I can really get from it is the GH which should indicate Gordon Highlanders, right Chris.! It does appear that the 98 stamping has been marked through with sets of double lines, so yes that suggests that the item has been reissued. This may also correlate with the 'extra' Birmingham Repair inspection mark on the blade, as you don't normally get a reissue without a stamp. Looking again at the Crown over the BR inspection - it is more 'modern' in style than the original inspection mark. Reissue in 1918 looks good. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 5 June , 2012 Share Posted 5 June , 2012 Thanks for the close up S>S. It looks like the original issue was in fact March 1995 to the Gordon Highlanders with re-issues in '98 and '18. A Mark III version of the dirk which had a plain blade was introduced in July 1913 by LoC 16582 and it was instructed that Marks I and II Dirks should be repaired and brought up to Mark III "when the design on the back of the blade will remain, only the etching on the sides of the blade being polished off". That obviously did not happen with this one despite being apparently re-issued in 1918. However, since Sparkbrook closed in 1906 the repair pre-dates the instruction. Regards TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 5 June , 2012 Share Posted 5 June , 2012 It looks like the original issue was in fact March 1995 to the Gordon Highlanders with re-issues in '98 and '18. Or is it a rack number or service number even.? Those couple of errant spots below it made me wonder about that - you would need to see the impressions. I don't know for sure how these were marked, so I'm only guessing. Did Bagot Street close same time as Sparkbrook - sure I've seen BR stamps post 1906.? Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 5 June , 2012 Share Posted 5 June , 2012 It could well be S>S, although don't you think that the format of "3.95" is more likely to be a date? Repair work at Bagot Street was transferred to RSAF Enfield in about 1890 and the facility closed but remained empty and owned by the War Office. It remained semi derelict until late 1914 early 1915 when it was offered to W.W.Greener by the War Office for the manufacture of Belgian Mausers. Later it was taken over by the Belgian government who continued manufacture there. Regards TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 5 June , 2012 Share Posted 5 June , 2012 Thanks for that TonyE, I have often wondered when it closed down. I'm not sure of the markings, but I'll bet the clue we need is right underneath that rust patch.! Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 5 June , 2012 Share Posted 5 June , 2012 Get that extra coarse steel wool out! Cheers tonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pwdevilliers Posted 6 June , 2012 Author Share Posted 6 June , 2012 Wow TonyE and S>S and Chris! This is now starting to get interesting. I will get the steel wool out and see if I can get more markings. I have 2 questions. Firstly: Could these dates of issue mean that this dirk was issued to the Gordon Highlanders for the war in India, then the South African Boer War and then the First World War? Secondly: I got hold of this dirk when my father died 2 years ago. He grew up on a farm in South Africa. It was given to him by a remittance man from Scotland that lived on their farm. All I have is the name of this man, it was John Crystal. Is it possible to find out whether John Crystal was in the Gordon Highlanders? If so, how? Tx PWdeVilliers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 6 June , 2012 Share Posted 6 June , 2012 Don't take my joke about coarse steel wool too seriously! Bronze wool would be far better but it is almost impossible to find in the UK. Use only the finest steel wool you can find and use it with some light oil. With regard to tracing your man Crystal, there are plenty of people on here that could check for you, but it is not my area. Regards TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now