DavoT Posted 3 June , 2012 Share Posted 3 June , 2012 This PPC is an addition to the collection and was seeking help to identify the origin of the uniforms worn in the picture. Many thanks in advance. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 3 June , 2012 Share Posted 3 June , 2012 This PPC is an addition to the collection and was seeking help to identify the origin of the uniforms worn in the picture. Many thanks in advance. David I am not an expert but they appear to me to be Prussian Landwehr (2nd Line Reservist) soldiers of the Imperial German Army wearing their distinctive Prussian leathern peaked caps (Landwehrmütze) from early in the war. The Landwehr was the third category of the German Army, after the regular Army and the reserves. Thus Landwehr divisions were generally made up of older soldiers who had passed from the reserves, and were intended primarily for occupation and security duties rather than heavy combat. There is a good explanation of the system here: http://greatwars-gamburd.blogspot.co.uk/2008/10/landsturm-und-landwehr-explained.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavoT Posted 5 June , 2012 Author Share Posted 5 June , 2012 Thanks for that , this could well be it. I will continue my research! My picture is is very good condition so it must have been in good hands or an album for some time to help preserve it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 5 June , 2012 Share Posted 5 June , 2012 The bayonets look to be 71/84's, which were commonly used by Landswehr and other reserve troops only after about 1888. Apparently they were almost completely withdrawn from service use by 1905 but then re-introduced for use by reserve troops in 1914. The centre guy has a cross inked-in over his head, which is usually an identifying mark for a caption but as you don't say that anything is written on the back of this one I guess there is nothing there...?! Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 5 June , 2012 Share Posted 5 June , 2012 Thanks for that , this could well be it. I will continue my research! My picture is is very good condition so it must have been in good hands or an album for some time to help preserve it. Well my great uncle fought throughout the war in the British Army and then emigrated to Gippsland with his new wife in 1920, so who knows, he might even have taken it there as a souvenir nicked from a trench....! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Sweeney Posted 5 June , 2012 Share Posted 5 June , 2012 I would actual say these are not Prussian Landsturm, instead they are Bavarian or Saxon Landsturm. The Cap Kokarde dose not look Prussian but more resembles the light Blue and White Bavarian version (more so than the Saxon). The Waffenrock also looks like either the Bavarian unique Vereinfachter (simplified) Waffenrock introduced in late 1914 or the 1907 Waffenrock unique to the Saxons with saxon cuff. The Cuff tells the difference but not enough detail. Joe Sweeney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 5 June , 2012 Share Posted 5 June , 2012 I would actual say these are not Prussian Landsturm, instead they are Bavarian or Saxon Landsturm. The Cap Kokarde dose not look Prussian but more resembles the light Blue and White Bavarian version (more so than the Saxon). The Waffenrock also looks like either the Bavarian unique Vereinfachter (simplified) Waffenrock introduced in late 1914 or the 1907 Waffenrock unique to the Saxons with saxon cuff. The Cuff tells the difference but not enough detail. Joe Sweeney Hi Joe, my understanding is that only the Prussian elements of the Imperial German Army in 1914 wore the distinctive Prussian leathern peaked caps (Leder Landwehrmütze) shown in the OP's photo, rather the same as only Scottish units wore a Tam-o-Shanter. Maybe that is wrong. I cannot comment on the other aspects of cuffs and tunic, etc. that you mention, as I have no knowledge whatsoever of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Sweeney Posted 5 June , 2012 Share Posted 5 June , 2012 The Wachstuchmutze was issued for Landwehr of Pruessen, Bayren, Sachsen, Wurttemburg, Hessen, Hansetean and ubrige Kontingente in 1914. Each Landwerh Krueze had its own state motto--The one you picture is definately Prussian--and state unique Kokarde. There is a nice Bavarian cap at Ingolstadt and a Wurtemburg cap at Rastatt on display. Joe Sweeney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 5 June , 2012 Share Posted 5 June , 2012 The Wachstuchmutze was issued for Landstrurm of Pruessen, Bayren, Sachsen, Wurttemburg, Hessen, Hansetean and ubrige Kontingente in 1914. Each Landwerke Krueze had its own state motto--The one you picture is definately Prussian--and state unique Kokarde. There is a nice Bavarian cap at Ingolstadt and a Wurtemburg cap at Rastatt on display. Joe Sweeney I'm getting a bit confused with terminology here Joe. The cap I showed and which matches the OP's photo is a Leder Landwehrmütze and the soldiers are Landwehr. I am not sure what Landstrurm are and is not the Wachstuchmutze the 'muffin' type cap with no peak? Are we slightly at cross purposes here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Sweeney Posted 5 June , 2012 Share Posted 5 June , 2012 We are talking about the samething. The Wachstuchmutze is the actual proper designation of what collectors call a Landwehr Mutze. Proper at least according to Jurgen Kraus great work "Die feldgraue Uniformierung des deutsches Heeres, 1907-bis 1918". What is good about Kraus is he references the actual Kriegs Ministerium orders for each state authorizing these things. Joe Sweeney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Sweeney Posted 5 June , 2012 Share Posted 5 June , 2012 Can't find the edit button any more. In fact these are not all Leather. The Visor is leather and the balance is Oil cloth termed in German "Glanzwachtuch". Joe Sweeney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 6 June , 2012 Share Posted 6 June , 2012 We are talking about the samething. The Wachstuchmutze is the actual proper designation of what collectors call a Landstrurm Mutze. Proper at least according to Jurgen Kraus great work "Die feldgraue Uniformierung des deutsches Heeres, 1907-bis 1918". What is good about Kraus is he references the actual Kriegs Ministerium orders for each state authorizing these things. Joe Sweeney OK thanks Joe, that is very interesting about the oilskin. Strange how the hat seems to have different names. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Sweeney Posted 6 June , 2012 Share Posted 6 June , 2012 Frogsmile, Note on my previuos posts I put Landsturm and it should have been Landwehr. I edited the original posts. Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 6 June , 2012 Share Posted 6 June , 2012 Frogsmile, Note on my previuos posts I put Landsturm and it should have been Landwehr. I edited the original posts. Joe OK, that's a relief, I was getting a bit befuddled. So I was right about Landwehr but you still feel that the distinctive oilskin hats that they are wearing do not necessarily indicate that they are Prussian? What other states wore the Prussian shaped cross on their caps then ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Sweeney Posted 6 June , 2012 Share Posted 6 June , 2012 The cap is not unique to Prussia and the Cross is not a Prussian Cross (although probably inspired by) in this case its a Landwehr Kreuz and was worn by all the following: Pruessen, Bayern, Sachsen, Wurttemburg, Hessen, Hansetean and ubrige Kontingente. Each state had a different Motto on the cross. Below is a picture showing the Crosses-except Saxon and W'Burg. Joe sweeney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavoT Posted 10 June , 2012 Author Share Posted 10 June , 2012 Thanks all for the information and discussion generated. Yes the centre chap is marked and I've attached the rear of the picture. Cheers, David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 10 June , 2012 Share Posted 10 June , 2012 The cap is not unique to Prussia and the Cross is not a Prussian Cross (although probably inspired by) in this case its a Landwehr Kreuz and was worn by all the following: Pruessen, Bayern, Sachsen, Wurttemburg, Hessen, Hansetean and ubrige Kontingente. Each state had a different Motto on the cross. Below is a picture showing the Crosses-except Saxon and W'Burg. Joe sweeney Fantastic stuff and very interesting Joe. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavoT Posted 11 June , 2012 Author Share Posted 11 June , 2012 Well my great uncle fought throughout the war in the British Army and then emigrated to Gippsland with his new wife in 1920, so who knows, he might even have taken it there as a souvenir nicked from a trench....! Hi, if you don't mind me asking - what part of Gippsland? I get these cards in lots from a chap on e-bay who I think gets them from overseas! I have quite a few now and they give a good insight from the 'other' side. Cheers, David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 11 June , 2012 Share Posted 11 June , 2012 Hi, if you don't mind me asking - what part of Gippsland? I get these cards in lots from a chap on e-bay who I think gets them from overseas! I have quite a few now and they give a good insight from the 'other' side. Cheers, David No, I don't mind. He was a Leading Fireman at Morwell Bridge and re-enlisted at Portsea, State of Victoria, into the Royal Australian Engineers in 1941. I enclose another Landswehr image for you to compare. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavoT Posted 12 June , 2012 Author Share Posted 12 June , 2012 Very nice, thankyou FROGSMILE another perspective on these chaps. Leading Fireman hey, interestingly enough I'm in the Fire Service too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 12 June , 2012 Share Posted 12 June , 2012 Very nice, thankyou FROGSMILE another perspective on these chaps. Leading Fireman hey, interestingly enough I'm in the Fire Service too I wonder if his name will appear in your Fire Service records, I imagine that he was at a station at Morwell Bridge (if there was one there). His name was Herbert (always known as 'Bert') George Bennett. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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