paul_adam Posted 31 May , 2012 Share Posted 31 May , 2012 Hi, The man in the picture started life in the RH&RFA in 1915, but later joined the RFC. His papers show that he joined and commenced training circa January 1918. I have no idea if the uniforms changed when the RFC was consumed by the RAF, but wondered if anyone out there can tell the difference, if indeed there was one, between the uniforms, and whether the photograph can be more accurately dated than simply 1918. He died in October 1918 when his RE8 was shot down. Many Thanks, Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 31 May , 2012 Share Posted 31 May , 2012 Hi, The man in the picture started life in the RH&RFA in 1915, but later joined the RFC. His papers show that he joined and commenced training circa January 1918. I have no idea if the uniforms changed when the RFC was consumed by the RAF, but wondered if anyone out there can tell the difference, if indeed there was one, between the uniforms, and whether the photograph can be more accurately dated than simply 1918. He died in October 1918 when his RE8 was shot down. Many Thanks, Paul It is an Army pattern SD uniform for the RA (RHA/RFA/RGA). Officers attached on flying duty would only purchase RFC/RAF uniform if they applied and were accepted for a full transfer. Otherwise they returned to their original regiment at the end of their tour of duty in that (i.e. flying) capacity. This is a traditional Army policy and still applies today to those on attachment to the Army Air Corps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul_adam Posted 31 May , 2012 Author Share Posted 31 May , 2012 Thank you Frogsmile, that is helpful to know, appreciate the help. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 31 May , 2012 Share Posted 31 May , 2012 Thank you Frogsmile, that is helpful to know, appreciate the help. Paul Glad to have been of help. His badge of rank (on cuffs) is that of a full Lieutenant and you can see the RA collar badges (a grenade or bomb with scroll inscribed UBIQUE (i.e. "everywhere" - the regimental motto) beneath) quite clearly too. In the British system, as an officer you do not join the Army, you join a regiment. Irrespective of what you are doing (i.e. detached duty) you wear that regiments uniform and, if you wish to transfer, you only adopt your 'new' regiments full uniform once you have been accepted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul_adam Posted 31 May , 2012 Author Share Posted 31 May , 2012 Thanks again.....He wasn't made Lieutenant until June 1918, so that actually puts the picture after that date. Would you happen to know if he would have been awarded the wings before or after his training? He was at Reading in January 1918, No.1 TDS Stamford in March, joined 35 Wing in June, Worthy Down to the Artillery & Infantry Cooperation School in July, and finally to the BEF in September. He only flew for a month before being killed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ATNOMIS Posted 31 May , 2012 Share Posted 31 May , 2012 Thanks again.....He wasn't made Lieutenant until June 1918, so that actually puts the picture after that date. Would you happen to know if he would have been awarded the wings before or after his training? He was at Reading in January 1918, No.1 TDS Stamford in March, joined 35 Wing in June, Worthy Down to the Artillery & Infantry Cooperation School in July, and finally to the BEF in September. He only flew for a month before being killed. Could we see the full picture? Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul_adam Posted 31 May , 2012 Author Share Posted 31 May , 2012 Sorry, I was trying to zoom in on the uniform, there is no cap to show. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wardog Posted 31 May , 2012 Share Posted 31 May , 2012 Can you tell us his name and squadron? Regards, Paul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 31 May , 2012 Share Posted 31 May , 2012 Paul, In addition to the cuff rank/regimental type shown in your excellent photograph, there was an array of uniforms worn by RFC/RAF officers during WW1. I am posting a selection of some of the other types. Regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 31 May , 2012 Share Posted 31 May , 2012 Army/RND style jacket with naval cuff lace, shoulder rank insignia and fabric RFC wings. LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 31 May , 2012 Share Posted 31 May , 2012 RFC Pilot Officer wearing the pattern 1912 ' Maternity ' jacket, with cloth Captain's shoulder insignia and pilot's wings. LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 31 May , 2012 Share Posted 31 May , 2012 RFC Flying Officer wearing the Pattern 1912 ( Maternity style ) SD jacket with pilot's wings. LF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 31 May , 2012 Share Posted 31 May , 2012 1918 RAF Second Lieutenant ( his rank denoted by the rank bar attached to the band on his cap ). Khaki RAF jacket with cloth belt. Single rank band on cuff with gilt RAF Eagle and Crown above. LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 31 May , 2012 Share Posted 31 May , 2012 1918 RAF Officer's uniform for the rank of Lieutenant with 2 cuff stripes and a gilt RAF eagle and crown above. No shoulder straps, 4 gilt RAF buttons, 2 breast patch pockets, 2 large bellow hip pockets, and buckled fabric waist belt. His cap has a khaki crown with a black glazed peak and chin strap, black mohair cap band with metal rank insignia bars. The RAF cap badge is a RAF eagle with crown above, entwined by laurel leaves. LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul_adam Posted 31 May , 2012 Author Share Posted 31 May , 2012 Can you tell us his name and squadron? Regards, Paul. Yes of course, he is GWE (George William Edendale) Whitehead, and was with 53 Squadron, flying RE8 D6799 when he was shot down on 17 October. There are some other references to him within the forum. My interest is that he was one of a number of men who played cricket for Kent who died during the War. Paul Paul, In addition to the cuff rank/regimental type shown in your excellent photograph, there was an array of uniforms worn by RFC/RAF officers during WW1. I am posting a selection of some of the other types. Regards, LF Thanks LF, I had no idea there was such a wide variety of uniforms in use! Regards, Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 31 May , 2012 Share Posted 31 May , 2012 Would you happen to know if he would have been awarded the wings before or after his training? Wings were and still are presented on completion (successfully) of all flying training necessary to fly an aircraft competently (i.e. safely). By 1918 this training was well developed, but there were periods earlier in the war when it was very rudimentary indeed because of the need for sufficient numbers to meet supply and demand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wardog Posted 1 June , 2012 Share Posted 1 June , 2012 Hello Paul. You may have seen my interest in 53 Squadron due to having the memorial plaque of another young officer who was KIA the week before your man. Regards, Paul. http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=80232&hl=raby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul_adam Posted 1 June , 2012 Author Share Posted 1 June , 2012 I hadn't Paul, but now I know I will pass along anything I find. Not sure if anything on these pages helps... http://shadowsoftime.co.nz/squadron53a.html (both Raby and Whitehead named) http://www.britishmedals.us/files/Book6_files/raf18r.html (Muster Roll) http://www.flightglobal.com/FlightPDFArchive/1918/1918%20-%200631.PDF (appt as 2nd Lt Observer Officer recorded in Flight Global) http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/Details?uri=D8218342 (records held in Nat Archives) Alternatively there are papers available on ancestry - if you havent got access let me know. Which is the book you readon 53 Squadron? Thanks, Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul_adam Posted 1 June , 2012 Author Share Posted 1 June , 2012 Wings were and still are presented on completion (successfully) of all flying training necessary to fly an aircraft competently (i.e. safely). By 1918 this training was well developed, but there were periods earlier in the war when it was very rudimentary indeed because of the need for sufficient numbers to meet supply and demand. Thanks again FS. I have managed to get a date on the photograph, and am informed it was taken 10th September 1918, which was just four days before he joined the BEF in France.Thanks for everyone's help, I've learnt a thing or two! Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wardog Posted 2 June , 2012 Share Posted 2 June , 2012 I think the book was probably United in Effort- though it does not have the title on the pages I copied in 2004. Any info. now available would be of interest to me. Your man is just listed as reported missing then confirmed dead. Regards, Paul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 3 June , 2012 Share Posted 3 June , 2012 Thanks again FS. I have managed to get a date on the photograph, and am informed it was taken 10th September 1918, which was just four days before he joined the BEF in France. Thanks for everyone's help, I've learnt a thing or two! Paul There are some good books that cover flying in WW1 and one that I recommend as an easy reading classic is "Sagittarius Rising", by Cecil Lewis. You can order it from your library quite easily. It covers training in the early part of the war and might give you a taste for further reading. This is also a good source: http://www.theaerodrome.com/books/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul_adam Posted 4 June , 2012 Author Share Posted 4 June , 2012 There are some good books that cover flying in WW1 and one that I recommend as an easy reading classic is "Sagittarius Rising", by Cecil Lewis. You can order it from your library quite easily. It covers training in the early part of the war and might give you a taste for further reading. This is also a good source: http://www.theaerodrome.com/books/ Thanks FS, I appreciate the pointers, there is a fantastic selection of books there. I think the book was probably United in Effort- though it does not have the title on the pages I copied in 2004. Any info. now available would be of interest to me. Your man is just listed as reported missing then confirmed dead. Regards, Paul. Thanks Paul, much appreciated. Regards, Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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