Iain Posted 30 May , 2012 Share Posted 30 May , 2012 this has probably been asked before, however here goes....i brought back from my trip some shrapnel and a couple of cartridge cases , with no problem, however i did see on sale in various book shops etc that helmets were on sale ( extortionate prices ) along with decommissioned hand grenades of various types ( I saw one young Australian schoolboy with one ) , would these sorts of things be commented on at customs or are they better being forwarded by more official means? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
healdav Posted 30 May , 2012 Share Posted 30 May , 2012 Well, if the French had caught you, the fine would have been eye watering (maximum 10,000 euros and a six month jail term). The British? Knowing their stupidity they would have accused you of terrorist activity and sent you to Guantanamo (or somewhere else they wouldn't admit to). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KIRKY Posted 30 May , 2012 Share Posted 30 May , 2012 French Customs have seen some of the stuff we have found and never commented, likewise the British version. Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 30 May , 2012 Share Posted 30 May , 2012 I honestly don't have any knowledge on this specific point but various countries, such as Turkey, have a 'patrimony' law, which means that anything found in that country belongs to that country, and so you might need an export certificate for something as obvious as a bayonet or deactivated shell or helmet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jscott Posted 30 May , 2012 Share Posted 30 May , 2012 The Somme museum in Albert openly sells all sorts of relics (helmets, bayonets etc) so surely the French aren't too worried about enforcing the letter of the law in this regard. I would have thought that there would be no problem in bringing home the odd shrapnel ball that you've found whilst walking along, but suspect you would be in big trouble (deservedly) if caught metal detecting/ digging on the battlefields. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seadog Posted 30 May , 2012 Share Posted 30 May , 2012 Since we are on the subject of battlefield relics -------------------- [media=]http://www.flickr.com/photos/glosters/sets/72157616167273771/[/media] Norman WOW that is clever, somehow I have posted a slide show" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest exuser1 Posted 30 May , 2012 Share Posted 30 May , 2012 Must admit am a bit suprised when the question of battlefield relics arises ,and i dont mean some doughnut coming back with a live shell ect , but as in 2 months we have the War and Peace show in Kent , and must admit never found the peace bit , but the pace is stacked out with French dealers Belgians , Dutch and Germans + the odd expat brit selling all sorts of relics 100s of tons of the stuff and its all come via Dover Ferrys and loads goes back 7 days later , the only time i was stopped by French customs was for wearing a current issue French issue camo jacket ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ogilwy Posted 31 May , 2012 Share Posted 31 May , 2012 healdav “The British? Knowing their stupidity they would have accused you of terrorist activity and sent you to Guantanamo (or somewhere else they wouldn't admit to).” Having worked in this field for many years let's address this. They're not stupid, that is insulting and not called for. They may not have the experience with the objects that you have, but that's not their fault. They are human however and trained to look for all sorts of illegal items, also as with all of us moods can differ and they can be rubbed up the wrong way. Please cut a bit of slack to the people who are trying to keep us safe. If they are short with you, it may be that for the last 8 hours all they've had is abuse from people with no manners. It does not excuse them if they too are rude, but being curt may be due to a really, really bad day! I fit one of the profiles for checking, when I'm off the Belgium or France digging and get checked all the time. As yet I've never had a problem and always found that when treated with respect it was returned. If you bring back a grenade or item of ammunition that is 'inert' several things have occurred: 1. It was not inert to start with! We did not use inert grenades against the enemy! So, how did it become inert? Purchasing one of these items is perpetuating a criminal act that has killed, and will continue to kill people. 2. The explosive that has been removed - where is it now? As we know it is still capable of detonating today, so where and who has it and most importantly for what purpose. 3. The item is inert! Who says? What recognised qualification do they hold? As it is an offence to possess explosives without the correct licensing then you are wide open to prosecution if caught. Last year there were two separate accidents where people were hurt by 'Inert' items functioning and injuring them. One a child lost fingers when an inert mortar bomb fuze proved it wasn't! 4. The purchase of these items encourages the illegal digging on the battlefields which results in the destruction of what remains for nothing more than material gain. Many of these people do not care about remains of soldiers (as we have seen, when a site we were conducting an authorised archaeological dig on, was raided at night and the bodies stripped of possessions and the possibility of identification robbed). 5. If the customs are remotely suspicious you will be held for what may be several hours, until one of my colleagues arrives to check the item out. If at the end of that it is deemed Ok, then you would be allowed to continue on your way. But do you really need several hours of that? If it is debatable as to it's state, then this situation could and probably would escalate. Remember if it found to contain explosives or even if it is swabbed and gives a positive for explosive you could be charged and prosecuted for it. Once you decide to bring that object into Britain then you are taking responsibility for it and the consequences are yours. 6. We do not use, "Guantanamo (or somewhere else they wouldn't admit to)", but something like this could seriously crimp your enjoyment and would round off your holiday badly. The trade in ammunition as a collectables has been looked at by several nations and work is on-going to make a more effective way of policing this. This advice is offered with the best intentions, I'm sure some have had bad experiences with officials, but that is not for me to comment on. Officials attitudes have been done to death elsewhere on the forum and it helps no one to start that again. As you point out the French have quite sever laws covering artefacts. We are playing catch up in Britain, but be assured it is happening. Our explosives laws however are upto date and very good. Both possession of, and illegal modification of explosives and items of ordnance carry heavy jail terms, even as a first offence. I do not suggest anyone on this forum is neither stupid enough to do this nor a law breaker, either but hopefully this post might help a little, I’ve been involved for over 10 years in trying to stop the illegal trade in ammunition and highly dangerous practices of ‘inerting’ items. All I can hope is that if our work has stopped one person from injuring or killing themselves, or one person, thinks twice and does not end up in trouble for possessing something, then all the 1000’s of hours of work have not been wasted. with repect to all, Rod Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 31 May , 2012 Share Posted 31 May , 2012 Well said Rod! And when you get to Ankara I'll take you to the local shoe-shop which has its very own Gallipoli display complete with 'deactivated' hand grenades, bullets in stripper clips, etc.. That, of course, would mean it would be a bit of a bus man's holiday for you, but it's always nice to see living candidates for the 'Darwin Awards'! Cheers, Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon127 Posted 31 May , 2012 Share Posted 31 May , 2012 I would say use extreme caution but feel that certainly UK customs will be used to the flow of battlefield relics coming back from Europe and will use some discretion ; cue dozens of contradictory anecdotes in response to this! I once bought some odds and sods (knacked 303s and 7.92 cases but some with the bullets still on) in one of the shops in Ypres and entirely forgot that I had to go through security checks at Brussels Eurostar Terminal on the way back. Needless to say I was more than relieved when my backpack containing aforementioned articles sailed through the X-ray scanner without so much as a bleep. Then it was lashings of celebratory Stella Artois in the bar on the other side before I was spirited back to Blighty. S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 31 May , 2012 Share Posted 31 May , 2012 Yes, but, just after Lockerbie I was hauled over at Heathrow because an X-ray saw some empty cartridge cases in my bags - I'd picked them up on the High Rochester training ground, put them in a pocket and clean forgot about them... Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iain Posted 31 May , 2012 Author Share Posted 31 May , 2012 Rod, Thanks for the very informative response...I don`t consider myself lacking in the intelligence department and would never have tried to bring anything that was remotely pyrotechnic..however based on what you have said I am ( and I freely admit to this) quite naive in the ways of customs on the Borders of our country and abroad...but as Hesmond has also said there seems to a bit of laisse fair when it comes to these market sellers??????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 31 May , 2012 Share Posted 31 May , 2012 I am quite happy to share my own experience as a warning, it has been mentioned here before. My car was directed out of the queue at Calais and surrounded by Police and 'Artificers' I was taken into custody and the car searched, bottom line, they took out about 5 kilograms of shrapnel balls (for melting down and turning into lead soldiers) an oiler and several fuzes, all fired relics, none with gaines attached. That was it, nothing else. Things were a bit more complicated and uncomfortable than that, but I received a verbal warning and signed a document several pages long saying that I understood the law regarding the transportation of explosives and weapons in France and across borders. If anyone not in a uniform or who doesn't work as a customs or police officer at the Calais border tells you what you can and cannot take through and what your rights are then run, run away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ogilwy Posted 31 May , 2012 Share Posted 31 May , 2012 Iain, Yes I've met several of the sellers, professionally. It is not unknown for them to be inspected at the port of entry, in fact the record is just over 8 hours to go through one vehicle and trailer. So yes the shows are looked at (as you would imagine) on both sides of the channel. But we are still awaiting regulation and legislation to enable a tighter and safer control. I'm afraid that we live in a democracy (or as close to it as we can get). The draconian levels I would love to see are not possible, and a sensible middle of the road, safe and legal path has to be taken. Be assured that when the authorities have recieved infomation that someone is breaking the law with regards these items the action is swift and very effective. On the jobs I've done in this field the authorities concerned had a 100% success rate and all persons recieved a criminal record and punishment of some description (what depending upon the judges decision, (remember 5 yrs for a first offence is possible for these crimes)). The efforts taken to ensure that the person or person's were indeed worthy of a professional visit were such that, that proud record was achieved. I am no longer involved in this side of the house, having moved to a different branch of the job, but have not heard of a lessening in standards since I was and of course we always talk to our friends and keep updated. If you feel that the fairs are wrong, then petition your MP. You never know it might get some changes made. As someone who is not a police or customs officer, but has worked extensively (over 30 Yrs) with both, and our standards being of the very highest level, I have no reason to stand up for people un-necessarily. So when I say what a good job both do with this, I really mean it. The fact that they are happy to call for expert advice and that it is readily available should I hope help demonstrating the efforts that are gone to to try to get this right. AVS, Thank you for your post, I could not agree with you more. I would always advocate if in doubt ask someone official. It's amazing the level of inconvenience that something you might consider trivial can create. Knowing your expertise and having read many of your good sense posts, your frank story and attitude adds considerable weight to this. Regards, Rod Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 31 May , 2012 Share Posted 31 May , 2012 Nearly as bad a when I accidently handed over one passport and my wifes Cats Protection League diary, from his reaction it appeared as if I was the offspring of Bin Laden on my way to flying lessons, the officer either had a huge warped sense of humour or no sense of humour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon127 Posted 31 May , 2012 Share Posted 31 May , 2012 Re Rod's posts - are we talking about LIVE ammunition and not just things that were once live and have now been rendered wholly inert by the proper methods but may, still to the over zealous be seen as an infringement? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ogilwy Posted 31 May , 2012 Share Posted 31 May , 2012 Simon, What are the proper methods? I have been in this buisness my whole adult life and I'm yet to see anything short of Government run or Major Industry that even comes close to safe or proper. I can quote too many instances of maimed or dead people who thought that inerting ammunition was easy. You can't pick and chose what laws you wish to follow, its the law, bust. I'm sorry if I seem to being hard about this, but you try scraping up the remains of an error of judgement like that and you to would develope strong feelings on the subject too. If you follow the thread all the way through you will see that unless conducted by a legally licensed organisation all the "wholly inert" items (and who's say so do you have for that?) have been illegally tampered with to reach that state. If you have another explanation how they miraculously reached that condition, please let me know as we've never found one yet, (and yes in a severe state of de-composition items can become inert but at that point they are more dust than rust!). Over zealous, NO, attempting to save lives and prevent law breaking YES. If you believe that for the sake of an excellent example for a collection peoples lives should be put at risk then that is your choice, remembering that you would have to live with that should, if or when it goes wrong. Again I appologise for the strong tone of my reply, but where peoples lives are at stake there is no other attitude. I hope this makes sense to you and answers your question. Rod Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon127 Posted 31 May , 2012 Share Posted 31 May , 2012 Rod, I have re-read my post - which was phrased rather badly - and concede that it may have appeared like I was contending with the points you had made earlier. Please note that this was not my intention. What I was getting at, and you have answered me rather satisfactorily, was really what the current attitude towards the ownership of any inert ordnance is. I note and agree with your point about there never being any definitive way to know that something that is ostensibly inert, is in fact inert and that, unless completely regulated, (near impossible with WW1 debris) it becomes very, very hard to know that what you are buying has not at some stage been through the shady and potentially illegal and hazardous process of unregulated deactivation. I believe that a certain amount of buyer/owner culpability also must exist. If you have the opportunity to buy ordnance but do not know enough about it or cannot be certain that you are buying from a source that does (and has the paperwork and approval to prove it) then you should not buy it. I have to say though, that in spite of all I have said, if I had the option of buying ,say, a knackered rusty old Mills bomb that was just the casing with no baseplug and I could see daylight shining through it from top to bottom, then any qualms about whether it had been 'ethically' deactivated would probably not kick in. Hypocritical perhaps but I'm afraid that's the way I see it and I would take the 'risk' in such an instance. I hugely admire the work of customs and the police and respect their efforts to keep the public safe. Ironically my collection has hardly any such items in but I always find this topic an interesting area for debate. Out of interest, what field did you work in if you don't mind me asking? HSE? Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ph0ebus Posted 31 May , 2012 Share Posted 31 May , 2012 Rod, Nothing in my view speaks louder than the voice of experience. Thanks for all that you've said. Hopefully some of it will be considered, if not taken to heart by those who handle such items without the proper caution and education, and perhaps save themselves and others some heartache. -Daniel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 1 June , 2012 Share Posted 1 June , 2012 The point I made in my post 13 about my experience is that it really doesn't matter what you think or know you have, once that officer decides that he is going to follow a route he goes for it. I had never before or since seen 'artificers' involved in searching a vehicle. In some respects I was probably lucky they were there, they found nothing of concern - but they still went through the process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ogilwy Posted 1 June , 2012 Share Posted 1 June , 2012 Gentlemen all, Thank you all for your support on a subject I truly believe in. Simon, in particular thanks for showing the good sense and attitude that I have become used to on this forum, I feel reassured as to why this is the only such location I frequent, and only one I would consider speaking out on. As you've asked the question Simon and I'm now about to retire after 32 years, I am for the next 6 months one of Her Britannic Majesties Explosive Ordnance Disposal Officers (EOD), sadly now desk bound 9/10ths of the time doing other things. Having spent a long time living on pure adrenalin (and a considerable amount of morphine for 4 years due to some testy locals in a hot dry place!) I’ve had the honour to attend literally thousands of jobs all over the world. I am now going to take off one set of clothes and hopefully return in clothes of my own choosing to where it all started and go and teach the youngsters how to do the job at our school. Along with being a qualified archaeologist this is pertinent reason why I speak with a degree of experience. Best Regards, Rod Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon127 Posted 1 June , 2012 Share Posted 1 June , 2012 Okay, the man says he is neither a Customs or Police Officer, but is the Health and Safety Executive really the best guess I could come up with? For shame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iain Posted 1 June , 2012 Author Share Posted 1 June , 2012 Rod, I thank you for your Wisdom ( and years of service), I now view my recent wanderings through recently ploughed fields on the continent as a bit of a fools Errand. I will be visiting again later in the year and will certainly be keeping the mud off my wellingtons. I was at Langemarck Cemetary and at the invitation of the local ( I assume ) farmer who was also selling spent cartridge cases , ball bearings etc, from the back of his van, which inceidently was full of all sorts of ordanance,I chanced across several pieces of shrapnel and spent cartridge cases, which aI have brought home, needless to say they will be the last that I return with. However bearing in mind what you have said in an earlier post regarding " inert" explosives , guys like this "farmer " must be travelling the countryside of Belgium and France like ticking timebombs???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchtrotter Posted 1 June , 2012 Share Posted 1 June , 2012 Iain, dont get too hung up on field walking. No issues and you are not going to go bang as soon as you step foot on a ploughed field! Walking is the best way you can explore and understand the battlefields. Re ordnace and relics. I used to bring back all sorts but never live stuff. 18 pounder cases (fired and empty of shrapnel), rifles (if lucky), and more. Nowadays I leave most stuff where they were found and take a picture. Anything good and safe I will bring back ie buttons, badges, and from my last trip a complete German bayonet. Re customs, I have been stopped both sides and on occasions with and without booty. I have never had a problem at port or at the peage where the customs lurk also. However I am wary now based on Auchonvillers experience. I would still feel confident if stopped with only the above mentioned items from this year, but you never know. Was a moment when I told my bro he had to leave a lovely Mauser in the field, ever seen a grown man cry? Once I did buy a deact stokes round from a dealer in France (at a fair) and was stopped. I had seperated it into constituent parts and the Gendarmes / Douane were fine. On another occasion they were absolutely fascinated by some stuff I had found and talked me to death! I have also seen the Gendarmes visit fairs looking for live or obviously home deacted stuff. My thoughts on a subject I usually avoid discussing. TT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ogilwy Posted 1 June , 2012 Share Posted 1 June , 2012 Iain, TT is right. Don't let this stop you walking the battlefields. The stuff has been there for nearly 100 yrs now and it takes an outside influence to make things bad. I have actually seen a plough and tractor destroyed in Belgium, the farmer was saved by a thick armoured plate covering the floor, (he was however very annoyed as it was a brand new tractor to replace the one he blew up the month before!). The other definate hazard is idiots, they will be dangerous almost anywhere and are definately a problematic influence. As there are no idiots here this is not a problem. When you go don't miss out on the walking bit. It's so important and the best way to get a feel for the locations. Regards, Rod Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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