Grenadier Guards Item - Identification Please

[Guest]

Hello

I am not sure if this is Great War vintage but can anyone please positively identify which era this is from and also tell me if it was an Officer's WO's Sgts, Bandsman's or OR's? I suspect it is pre-war and am curious to know if there is any reference. No guessing please (I can do that on my own) - would be grateful if there are any experts out there.

Also, is it technically a pouch or a cartouche pouch?

[FROGSMILE]

It is a rather rare officers undress cartouche pouch for the pouch belt of the 2nd Life Guards and was introduced around 1820 and worn at least until 1843. Given its survival I imagine that it is from the later part of that period.

The grenade badge was issued for the 2nd Life Guards only, as they had previously (from 1693) been an entirely different unit of the Household Cavalry titled the Horse Grenadier Guards (HGG) whose origin was as a specialised addition to the personal body (or King's 'Life') guard (mounted element) originally raised for Charles II whilst he was in exile.

The Full Dress pouch belt and pouch was similar in design, but embroidered (in the case of the belt all over) with gold bullion wire. The undress pouch belt was of white leather so that with the black leather pouch it matched that of the men. The grenade ornament appears to have continued until 1843, at which point the the 2nd adopted the same coat of arms badge that had been worn by the 1st Life Guards.

The HGG were later (1788) retitled as the 2nd Life Guards and then the Royal Horse Guards (RHG - previously a Cromwellian regiment) was admitted from the Line Cavalry as a 3rd unit for the sovereign's Household Cavalry in 1820.

Both regiments of Life Guards adopted a bearskin cap for 'review order' together with a sunburst ornament on their breastplates between 1820-25, but only the 2nd Life Guards was honoured with the grenade pouch badge, the 1st Horse Guards using a star. The RHG did not wear the bearskin, but instead wore the standard ceremonial Roman style helmet common to all three units at that time.

[Guest]

Frogsmile - Utterly brilliant. And posted with confidence too. Many thanks for this. I am am serious badge collector of 40 years (now specialising in Victorian and Edwardian Officer's Blue Cloth Helmet plates, 162 of them and counting which juuuuust gets ti WWI) and I am astounded at your knowledge. Fantastic. It is owned by a Grenadier Guard (and collector of GG) and I think he will be surprised to discover what it is. I can't thank you enough. Regards MG

[FROGSMILE]

Frogsmile - Utterly brilliant. And posted with confidence too. Many thanks for this. I am am serious badge collector of 40 years (now specialising in Victorian and Edwardian Officer's Blue Cloth Helmet plates, 162 of them and counting which juuuuust gets ti WWI) and I am astounded at your knowledge. Fantastic. It is owned by a Grenadier Guard (and collector of GG) and I think he will be surprised to discover what it is. I can't thank you enough. Regards MG

I am glad to help. It is not original research, but just based upon knowledge that I have gleaned from various books painstakingly written and illustrated by historians far greater than me.

[Guest]

You might like this then....

[FROGSMILE]

You might like this then....

Yes, I think it is the officers training battalion (Horse and Foot) of the Guards.