4thGordons Posted 21 May , 2012 Share Posted 21 May , 2012 Any suggestions on this badge? Rest of the uniform standard - with slade-wallace style buff leather belt. Bedford photographer. There is some annotation on the rear of the card but I am not really sure what to make of it it reads: HCB Bedford (Fife Coy) TIA Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackblue Posted 22 May , 2012 Share Posted 22 May , 2012 Strange, Looks like a miniature Black Watch badge. The 1/7th (Fife) Battalion were briefly in Bedford before going to France in 1915. Rgds Tim D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackblue Posted 22 May , 2012 Share Posted 22 May , 2012 Perhaps an element of the Fife Company, 3/1st Highland Cyclist Battalion? The 1/1st and 2/1st remained in Scotland until the 2/1st went to Ireland in May 1918. The 3/1st are listed on the LLT as being in the 'UK' until disbanded in 1916. It appears elements of the Huntingdonshire Cyclist Battalion were also in Bedford at some stage. Rgds Tim D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crunchy Posted 22 May , 2012 Share Posted 22 May , 2012 As Blackblue says it could be the Highland Cyclist Battalion. It may be a sergeant as Gaylor writes "the sergeants wore a white metal star with brass scrolls and centrepiece", which the badge in the photograph appears to be, rather than the larger Black Watch style badge worn by the ORs. K&K, however, do not mention the badge described by Gaylor, only that the sergeants wore a WM and GM badge of the same design as the OR. The officers wore a smaller badge in bronze but it has a quite distinctive shape unlike that in the photo. It is not Huntingdonshire Cyclist Battalion as they had a rearing stag on a ground over a scroll. Regards Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 22 May , 2012 Share Posted 22 May , 2012 Brilliant deductions and research gentlemen, I think you both have it spot on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackblue Posted 22 May , 2012 Share Posted 22 May , 2012 Looking at Gaylor it says the usual badge was of the Black Watch pattern, which this appears to be. The difference for the Sergeant's badge being that they had brass scrolls and centrepiece. I think 'star' means the Black Watch style star. The picture in the relevant plate appears to have been quite large though, similar to the regular Black Watch size (far larger than is depicted here). Does anyone know whether the HCB wore a smaller badge? Rgds Tim D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crunchy Posted 22 May , 2012 Share Posted 22 May , 2012 Tim, The normal badge was the same size as the Black Watch. K&K do mention a smaller badge, but the photo of it shows a very distinctive "points". It may be the angle of the photo above doesn't show them as pronounced as the photo in K&K 1862. Regards Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sepoy Posted 22 May , 2012 Share Posted 22 May , 2012 Are there any shoulder titles visible in the original photograph? Sepoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackblue Posted 22 May , 2012 Share Posted 22 May , 2012 Cheers Chris, I don't have K & K. Any chance of a scan at some stage? Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 22 May , 2012 Author Share Posted 22 May , 2012 Thanks all If it is a Sgt there are no indications of rank that I can see on the original, no shoulder titles either - I attach a the complete image below: Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon92 Posted 22 May , 2012 Share Posted 22 May , 2012 The symmetric shape of the badge, in breadth as well as height, causes me to favor an HLI badge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 22 May , 2012 Share Posted 22 May , 2012 ... Thanks all... This is very much an Offtopic throw out, but looking at this 4thG contribution and noticing his avatar and how this and the OP photograph are both studio portraits against painted backgrounds... If anyone has a graduate student looking for a research topic, then assembling a collection of these studio portraits and matching up background details (e.g., a fluted column and ornate banister railing in this case) might possibly / probably help narrow down photographers / locations / named portrait subjects and so go a long way to help place the rather 'anonymous' ones like this one into a more researchable context. E.g.'anonymous' photograph background X matches photograph Y of known subject Z with Unit A in 19XX, and where BCD units are also known to have been present.... A VERY long shot I know, but...??? Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 22 May , 2012 Author Share Posted 22 May , 2012 Trajan This is exactly why I got this photo! If you do a search of the forum there is a thread (one I think is a good contender for a classic thread actually) that was started by "RasterScanning" and to which several others (esp "Piper") contributed, of photos of soldiers taken in Bedford during the war, my main interest is in late 14 to early 15 when the 1/4th Gordons were there but there are lots of pictures taken in relatively few studios. In this case the my avatar (my great granddad) and this photo were indeed taken in the same photographers studio (Salamon's in Bedford) and identification is helped by the photographer's name being embossed on the bottom. I have several similar pictures. Handwritten in biro (so no period!) on the back of this card is "Uncle Dan? Married Aunt Jean (or possiby Glean) sister of Tom Henderson" Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 22 May , 2012 Share Posted 22 May , 2012 The symmetric shape of the badge, in breadth as well as height, causes me to favor an HLI badge. The badge itself is very small and more akin to that of a collar badge. The BW collar badge was a figure of St Andrew and Cross, but the HLI had a smaller representation of their star shaped cap badge as their collar insignia. However, it seems to me that the marking on the rear of the postcard (HCB (Fife Company)) leads to a conclusion that on the 'balance of probability' the badge shown is a special variant of the BW insignia for the Highland Cyclist Battalion. Ergo - did the HCB have an HLI element and if they did, was the distinguishing insignia a HLI collar badge? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 22 May , 2012 Share Posted 22 May , 2012 and HLI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon92 Posted 22 May , 2012 Share Posted 22 May , 2012 The badge itself is very small and more akin to that of a collar badge. The BW collar badge was a figure of St Andrew and Cross, but the HLI had a smaller representation of their star shaped cap badge as their collar insignia. However, it seems to me that the marking on the rear of the postcard (HCB (Fife Company)) leads to a conclusion that on the 'balance of probability' the badge shown is a special variant of the BW insignia for the Highland Cyclist Battalion. Ergo - did the HCB have an HLI element and if they did, was the distinguishing insignia a HLI collar badge? Yes, I see your point about the preponderance of the evidence centering on HCB and, hence, Black Watch. The pedigree of the HCB (based upon my limited refence sources) is synopsized as: 1887 5th (Perthshire Highland) VB The Black Watch; 1908 Became 8th (Cyclist) Bn, The Black Watch (TF); 1909 Redesignated Highland Cyclist Bn, HQ Birnam; 1920 Transferred to Royal Signals. So, no HLI element is indicated. The only HCB cap badge I have ever seen is, of course, the BW pattern badge with different scrolls and without the Sphinx; and, this is inconsistent with the image. The pieces do not seem to come together here! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 22 May , 2012 Share Posted 22 May , 2012 Yes, I see your point about the preponderance of the evidence centering on HCB and, hence, Black Watch. The pedigree of the HCB (based upon my limited refence sources) is synopsized as: 1887 5th (Perthshire Highland) VB The Black Watch; 1908 Became 8th (Cyclist) Bn, The Black Watch (TF); 1909 Redesignated Highland Cyclist Bn, HQ Birnam; 1920 Transferred to Royal Signals. So, no HLI element is indicated. The only HCB cap badge I have ever seen is, of course, the BW pattern badge with different scrolls and without the Sphinx; and, this is inconsistent with the image. The pieces do not seem to come together here! VBs were formed from VRC units that had discrete histories and their own, often jealously guarded insignia. Some of these units fought hard and sometimes succeeded in their efforts to retain some element of their hitherto independent traditions, whether this be a special badge or even colour of full dress (and thus mess dress) uniform. It might be that the 5th (Perthshire Highland) VB The Black Watch had as a distinction the badge seen on the cyclists head dress. That is the area to focus further research. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon92 Posted 23 May , 2012 Share Posted 23 May , 2012 VBs were formed from VRC units that had discrete histories and their own, often jealously guarded insignia. Some of these units fought hard and sometimes succeeded in their efforts to retain some element of their hitherto independent traditions, whether this be a special badge or even colour of full dress (and thus mess dress) uniform. It might be that the 5th (Perthshire Highland) VB The Black Watch had as a distinction the badge seen on the cyclists head dress. That is the area to focus further research. Good idea to look at 5VB The Black Watch. Unfortunately, that leads nowhere; see badge image from Bloomer "Badges of the Highland & Lowland Regiments." This badge is also confirmed in Grierson's "Records of the Scottish Volunteer Force." Perhaps, another research trajectory is the question of why this soldier was in Bedford. Bedford was the staging point for the 51st Highland Division. There is no indication that any of the HCBs were linked to the HD. However, the breakdown of 51st HD in http://www.1914-1918.net/51div.htm shows a Highland Divisional Cyclist Company under the heading Divisional Mounted Troops. Ideas on where to go from here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 23 May , 2012 Share Posted 23 May , 2012 Good idea to look at 5VB The Black Watch. Unfortunately, that leads nowhere; see badge image from Bloomer "Badges of the Highland & Lowland Regiments." This badge is also confirmed in Grierson's "Records of the Scottish Volunteer Force." Perhaps, another research trajectory is the question of why this soldier was in Bedford. Bedford was the staging point for the 51st Highland Division. There is no indication that any of the HCBs were linked to the HD. However, the breakdown of 51st HD in http://www.1914-1918.net/51div.htm shows a Highland Divisional Cyclist Company under the heading Divisional Mounted Troops. Ideas on where to go from here? Cap badges are dictated by type of head dress and the badge you have shown is the Glengarry Badge. The badge we need to know is that which was worn on the SD cap when it was introduced over the period 1905/06. Before that cyclist battalions generally wore the Field Service Cap (Garrison Cap to you), but after the introduction of the SD cap for wear with SD uniform they would have had to adopt a suitable regimental insignia. My guess is that after becoming TF in 1908 they adopted either, the 5th VBs collar badge (if it was different to the Regular parent unit's badge), or that they had miniature, BW star shaped badges, specially made up as a battalion badge that was suitable for wear on the cap. TF units still had an independent streak that they had inherited from their VB and VRC forebears and it was still quite common for them to do their own thing if they could get away with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now