Egypt / Suez area actions. 1916 - 1918.

[steve fuller]

Hi all

Brand new 'area' to me, so bear with me! Have collected info from this site and nosed around the web, but can anyone kindly point me to details of the following 'battles' (if thats the correct description)? Scuse the spelling ...

Wadi Majid 25/12/1915

Halazin 23/01/1916

Rumani 4 to 5/08/1916

Magdhaba - Rafah 23/12/1916 - 09/01/1917

The Unit Im particularly interested in is the 5th Beds TF Battalion, so if its possible to confirm whether they were in the actions listed, or others not mentioned, Id be very grateful

Many thanks Pals

Steve

[Guest stevenbec]

Mate,

I don't know about the first two but Romani was fought in the main by the Australian Light Horse with the NZ Mounted Rifles and some Yeomanry Regts.

The units of 42nd and 52nd British Div held the left flank of the allied line but were limited in the fighting of which almost all fell on the Mounted units.

As for Magdhaba and Rafa, Britsh Infantry were only used to advance on El Arish on the 22nd Dec 1916 but most fell behind the Mounted units and were not used at both battles, all work being done by Mounted units of all three countries.

S.B

[steve fuller]

Thanks mate

Helps to know where to look doesnt it?!

Steve

[steve fuller]

Ive been looking all over the place on the web and have collected a fair bit of info now. Still have gaps though and wandered if anyone can fill 'em for me?

1. The unit Im looking at is 5th Beds, in the 54th Infantry Div, so I 'assume' they were given holding the line duties for the duration of the campaign (due to the actions being mostly cavalry based acc' to what Ive seen so far, and the 54th's 'less than elite' reputation by their arrival in Egypt). Can anyone confirm or correct this pse?

2. Can anyone direct me to a site or similar that covers the 'actions' from a British perspective please? Discovered no end about Anzac forces - as expected - but little on British. Guessing the Regimental history will cover more detail than Ive seen so far, but anything else please?

3. Were the 162 Bgde in the Western Frontier Force, on the West of Suez canal? If so, until when?

4. Wadi Majid, near Mersa Matruh; Chrimbo day 1915 Senussi raid I believe, but anyone know of Battalion lists for the Outpost or any battle reports available pse? Doesnt seem to be covered anywhere so far!

5. Romani; any lists of what battalions were in the town (south) or involved in the counter attacks that day?

I appreciate this is not as well covered as other fronts, but thanks very much to anyone who can help.

Steve

[Wienand Drenth]

Steve,

I hope I can help a little:

1. The unit Im looking at is 5th Beds, in the 54th Infantry Div, so I 'assume' they were given holding the line duties for the duration of the campaign (due to the actions being mostly cavalry based acc' to what Ive seen so far, and the 54th's 'less than elite' reputation by their arrival in Egypt). Can anyone confirm or correct this pse?

5th Beds were in 162nd Infantry Brigade, 54th Division during the war. In April 1916 54th Division took over No. 1 (Southern) Section of the Suez Canal Defences. Later the division took part in the First, Second and Third Battles of Gaza, its capture and finally in the Battles of Megido in September 1918. Given the more open spaces, the action was more cavalry based than on the Western Front. But infantry was surely needed to capture and hold the ground

2. Can anyone direct me to a site or similar that covers the 'actions' from a British perspective please? Discovered no end about Anzac forces - as expected - but little on British. Guessing the Regimental history will cover more detail than Ive seen so far, but anything else please?

Of course this site has a page devoted to 54th Division. For the Bedfordshire Regiment, you will find all possible information at regiments.org

And the Official History will provide you with details of course. (I hope, as I don't have those volumes dealing with that part of the war).

Sorry, can't help with the other three questions.

Cheers,

Wienand

[Guest Pete Wood]

Unless I'm very much mistaken, the 54th Division was not involved in any of these actions, nor was the Division involved in 1st Gaza (though 161 Brigade was detached to the Desert Column), being held in reserve at Sheik Abbas.

1916 and up until March 1917 the Division was in training, helping to build roads and accompanying the water pipe which was gradually being laid along the route to Gaza.

2nd (April 1917) and 3rd (November 1917) Gaza, as you probably know, were costly actions and the 54th Division was pretty much decimated.

[Wienand Drenth]

Unless I'm very much mistaken, the 54th Division was not involved in any of these actions, nor was the Division involved in 1st Gaza (though 161 Brigade was detached to the Desert Column), being held in reserve at Sheik Abbas.

1916 and up until March 1917 the Division was in training, helping to build roads and accompanying the water pipe which was gradually being laid along the route to Gaza.

2nd (April 1917) and 3rd (November 1917) Gaza, as you probably know, were costly actions and the 54th Division was pretty much decimated.

I don't know if the division really took part in the battles mentioned especially 1st Battle of Gaze. But I just quoted what is written in the Order of Battle of Divisions in the section on 54th Division. The division was part of Eastern Force at the time of 1st Gaza. This doesn't imply of course it took part in the battle.

Besides the official histories, do you know any good reading on this campaign?

[steve fuller]

Thanks both.

Weinand

Thanks - didnt know about the April 1916 bit, as havent found any text putting the 5th anywhere so far! Their Regmntl site lists the 4 action as 'honours' but all Ive seen is mounted units on reports so far. Got the Regimental info though. Thanks for your help.

RT

Wouldnt surprise me to learn that they were reserves to the attack or similar, if there at all of course. Their site lists them as honours but no mention of them as yet in battle text, hence the Q's! Guessed as much about the pipes! Soon as I read about them laying pipes and track as they advanced, seemed the 54th were the faves!

Could you expand on 'in training' pse? Where'd it come from pse?

As far as the 1917 actions go, no I didnt know. My relative was KIA in 7th Beds, France in March 1918, having initially been in Gallipoli & Egypt in the 5th Beds, hence I dont know what dates to stop looking at when it comes to Palestine! Ive had to asssume a little here (not good i know, but lost otherwise!); because he was Blighty'd, Im thinking it must have been 6 months at least between him being wounded and returning to france? Would you say thats reasonable or not? hence Im thinking that the latest he'd have been in Egypt would have been Summer / Autumn 1917? Plus, he still had his original 4400 no. in March 1917 when the TF's were renumbered to 6 digits, so Im 'assuming' his original unit still had him administratively at the least (whether wnd or active still I cant say).

Thanks again Pals.

[steve fuller]

I don't know if the division really took part in the battles mentioned especially 1st Battle of Gaze. But I just quoted what is written in the Order of Battle of Divisions in the section on 54th Division. The division was part of Eastern Force at the time of 1st Gaza. This doesn't imply of course it took part in the battle.

Besides the official histories, do you know any good reading on this campaign?

thanks again Wienand; places them at a specific front at a specific time, and thats more than I had before!!

[Guest Pete Wood]

If your man was wounded, it was most probably at 2nd or 3rd Gaza.

Although it is biased, the regimental history of the 1/5th Suffolk Regiment is a good acount of what the 54th Division was doing.

[steve fuller]

Although it is biased, the regimental history of the 1/5th Suffolk Regiment is a good acount of what the 54th Division was doing.

Thanks RT. Will start with the Gaza assmption until proved or otherwise!

So, if he was wnd Nov 1917, would that be enough time to be moved back to UK, healed and be in france in time for 23rd March 1918? I appreciate its gonna be a general answer, but itd be more educated than mine at the mo, so would be welcomed!

And the biasedness - in favour of the Suffolks u mean? Could live with that for the moment - Would certainly ID where they were, and thatd do for a start! Cheers RT

[Guest Rechlin]

What R.F.C. and/or R.N.A.S. squadrons served in Egypt, 1916-1918 ? I am researching 2nd Lieutenant Charles William Janes, killed flying at Turnberry, 11th April 1918. His grave is inscribed Egypt 1914-16-17 and Gallipoli 1915, any leads would be welcome.

[Guest Pete Wood]

Rechlin, I don't know how much research you've done, but what makes you think your man was in the RFC/RNAS in Egypt....??

I could be mistaken, and usually I am, but I think your man was in the 3rd County of London Yeomanry (Sharpshooters). He joined up as a Private and got a commission while still in the Yeomanry.

He then transferred to the RFC, which became the RAF in April 1918. Was he in flight training at Turnberry when he died...??

Contact Dolphin or any of the other RFC/RAF experts on the forum, if you don't already know in which plane he was flying. Start a new thread in the 'War in the air' section, labelled '2 Lt Janes RAF.' If he was in training, then I doubt he would have flown a plane in Egypt at all.

[Guest Rechlin]

I admit I am making an assumption that 2Lt Janes was already an experienced pilot, as the RAF was only formed on 1st April 1918. He died only ten days later, surely he would not have been flying a Sopwith Camel at a School of Gunnery if he had just started flying training. I have been looking at the RNAS records in the PRO, just in case, but I have yet to find anything. I do find it odd that as a Private he was commissioned, but perhaps it did happen. Many thanks for your info!

Paul (Rechlin)

[Guest Pete Wood]

There seems to be some confusion here. Lots of soldiers, in the ranks, were commissioned.

Your man obviously transferred to the RFC after his commission was gained with the Yeomanry. In April 1918, everyone who was in the RFC exchanged their capbadge for the that of the RAF.

Janes was obviously a qualified pilot, as the Camel is a single seater. But, until you look at his record, there is no reason why he could not have JUST gained his licence on, for example, an Avro 504 and then gone on to gain experience in a Camel - because he was about to be posted to a fighter squadron.

I agree the Camel was notoriously difficult to fly - my Great Uncle lost control and was killed, having been an experienced pilot and ace in a Nieuport, a few weeks after he was posted to a Camel squadron.

But there is also nothing to stop a newly qualified pilot being killed in a Camel. Only his records will tell you the story.

Jane's accident card in the library at the RAF Museum, Hendon, will also tell you what happened, though I know Dolphin has given you most (if not all) of the accident info. But you'll also find out, on the accident card, what the plane's engine number was. His licence should, I think, also be held at Hendon and will tell you when he gained his licence.

Did you download his MiC...?? http://www.documentsonline.nationalarchive...1&resultcount=4