Willywombat Posted 22 April , 2012 Share Posted 22 April , 2012 Please find in the attached link a rather nice group photo. I would be grateful for any pointers as to the Unit and role. The cap badge looks to me a bit like a grenade. I would also be grateful for any dating evidence from the styles of tunic, wearing of the 'Imperial Service' badge and collar badges by some of them, and the strange circular badge worn above the stripes by the Corporal third from left (as seen below). Many thanks, Bob. http://i1093.photobucket.com/albums/i422/BioWombat/Unknowngroup.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ATNOMIS Posted 22 April , 2012 Share Posted 22 April , 2012 Please find in the attached link a rather nice group photo. I would be grateful for any pointers as to the Unit and role. The cap badge looks to me a bit like a grenade. I would also be grateful for any dating evidence from the styles of tunic, wearing of the 'Imperial Service' badge and collar badges by some of them, and the strange circular badge worn above the stripes by the Corporal third from left (as seen below). Many thanks, Bob. http://i1093.photobucket.com/albums/i422/BioWombat/Unknowngroup.jpg Bob Fusiliers for me (Transport section) Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dundeesown Posted 22 April , 2012 Share Posted 22 April , 2012 I`ll have a go at one of the Fusiliers Territorial Battalions and he is a Corporal. Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willywombat Posted 22 April , 2012 Author Share Posted 22 April , 2012 From the grenade cap badge, Fusiliers it looks like, I agree, so thanks for that. Any thoughts on the circular badge above the Corporal's stripes and grenade badge or when and where taken? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7t2ndswinger Posted 22 April , 2012 Share Posted 22 April , 2012 I'd say Lothians & Border Horse Yeomanry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ATNOMIS Posted 22 April , 2012 Share Posted 22 April , 2012 From the grenade cap badge, Fusiliers it looks like, I agree, so thanks for that. Any thoughts on the circular badge above the Corporal's stripes and grenade badge or when and where taken? farrier badges? Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 22 April , 2012 Share Posted 22 April , 2012 I don't think they are Fusiliers, the badge is unlike any Fusilier regiment of that time and the shoulder titles (where seen) appear to be curved. I feel they are more likely to be 7th (City of London) Battalion of the London Regiment. That said, the use of collar badges for the 'shiny 7th' seems unusual. There are no medal ribbons, overseas service stripes or wound stripes and several of the men are wearing the Imperial Service badge common in the early months of the war. These factors make me think that the photo was taken during training and before deployment to the seat of war. The ‘Shiny Seventh’ was the nickname of the 7th (City of London) Battalion The London Regiment which, prior to the formation of the Territorial Force in April 1908, had been the 3rd City of London Rifle Volunteers. During the Great War it formed two active battalions, 1/7th and 2/7th. The 1/7th landed in France in March 1915 with 4th London Brigade, 2nd London Division (in May these became 140th Brigade, 47th Division) and remained with it untill January 1918. Its first major action was at Festubert in May 1915, and subsequently it fought at Loos (September 1915), Vimy (May 1916), High Wood (September 1916) Butte de Warlencourt (October 1916) , Messines (June 1917) and Cambrai (November 1917). The 2/7th was raised in September 1914 and landed in France in January 1917 with 174th Brigade 58th (London) Division, fighting its first major battle at Bullecourt in May and then took part in the Third Ypres offensive in September-October 1917. In January 1918, following the reorganisation of the BEF from four to three battalions per brigades, the two battalions amalgamated becoming 7th London, in 174th Brigade 58th (London) Division, in which it served to the end of the war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7t2ndswinger Posted 22 April , 2012 Share Posted 22 April , 2012 I still say Lothians & Border Horse. Riding boots, an NCO with an arm badge and a collar badges smaller than the cap but the same design. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willywombat Posted 22 April , 2012 Author Share Posted 22 April , 2012 Frogsmile - that's just the sort of analysis re medal ribbons, Imperial Service badges etc. I was hoping for, so thanks for putting your mind to that. There could well be a Lothian and Border Horse connection as the gentleman who lent me the photo has it amongst a collection of various family photos, all the other WW1 ones being of men from various Scottish units. I appreciate everyone's efforts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 23 April , 2012 Share Posted 23 April , 2012 Frogsmile - that's just the sort of analysis re medal ribbons, Imperial Service badges etc. I was hoping for, so thanks for putting your mind to that. There could well be a Lothian and Border Horse connection as the gentleman who lent me the photo has it amongst a collection of various family photos, all the other WW1 ones being of men from various Scottish units. I appreciate everyone's efforts. I don't think that they are Lothians and Border Horse, as if you look at the collar badges they do seem to be grenades, although some are smaller than others and are 'perhaps' the Universal Grenade, used by grenadier, fusilier, artillery and engineer units throughout the Empire (Regulars and Colonials). The majority of the men appear to have collar badges the same size as the cap badges, but a few are definitely a smaller type. That said, another unusual feature is what appears to (also) be a grenade badge above the Corporals chevrons, which was usually either cloth, or the universal pattern mentioned above. In this case it appears to be larger. If they are indeed Yeomanry, it could perhaps be a cavalry arm badge, a common feature of that Arm. Collar badges were not commonly worn by Regular Army units until the 1920s and the presence of the Imperial Service badges also indicates a TF unit, which both, the Lothians and 7th Londons were. The Shiny Seventh remains the most likely I feel, but the jury is perhaps still out and the presence of the collar badges, badge above the chevrons and so many spurs does seem odd for an infantry unit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wainfleet Posted 23 April , 2012 Share Posted 23 April , 2012 My vote is for Lothian and Border Horse, though it is difficult to say for sure. This man has a wheelwright's badge above the arm badge. Add: There seem to be as many as 46 men equipped for mounted duties in the photo. I don't know how large an infantry transport section was, but this seems to me like an awful lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveE Posted 23 April , 2012 Share Posted 23 April , 2012 I would go with Lothians and Border Horse too. I'm sure I've read somewhere, possibly on the British & Commonwealth Badge forum, that the Lothians and Border Horse NCOs wore a version of the cap badge above or on the rank chevrons in addition to wearing it as collar badges. The curved shoulder title appears to be a single title so it could be the "L & B Horse" title, wouldn't the 7th Londons be more likely to have T/7/London or 7/London? Regards Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 23 April , 2012 Share Posted 23 April , 2012 I would go with Lothians and Border Horse too. I'm sure I've read somewhere, possibly on the British & Commonwealth Badge forum, that the Lothians and Border Horse NCOs wore a version of the cap badge above or on the rank chevrons in addition to wearing it as collar badges. The curved shoulder title appears to be a single title so it could be the "L & B Horse" title, wouldn't the 7th Londons be more likely to have T/7/London or 7/London? Regards Steve Yes Steve, I agree that the 7th Londons would have had a T/7/London - that is a very good point and one that I overlooked. Further research indicates that the Lothians and Border Horse did wear collar badges and the presence of arm badges above the Corporals stripes does seem to bear out a Yeomanry provenance, although I have not been able to find a specific reference to their wear by that regiment. I enclose photos that although from a later period show both the practice of wearing and distinctive (also from a distance grenade like) shape, of the regimental collar collar badges. It seems that up until the outbreak of WW1 the Lothians and Border Horse had been trained as mounted infantry, having fought as part of the Imperial Yeomanry in the 2nd Anglo/Boer War. The regiment was formed on the creation of the Territorial Force in April 1908 and placed under orders of the Lowland Mounted Brigade. It was headquartered in Edinburgh (one source says at 18 Dundonald Street, another gives Wemyss Place) with the squadrons being headquartered as follows: A Sqn: Dunbar (and drill stations at Earlston, Greenlaw, North Berwick, Musselburgh, Lauder, Kelso, Berwick, Haddington, Tranent, East Linton, Duns and Coldstream) B Sqn: Edinburgh (Musselburgh, Dalkeith, Penicuik, Gorebridge, Lasswade and Loanhead) C Sqn: Hawick (Galashiels, Jedburgh, Innerleithen, Kelso, Melrose, Newcastleton, Peebles, Selkirk, Stow, Yetholm and St Boswells) D Squadron: Edinburgh (Linlithgow, Bathgate, Broxburn, Hopetoun, Mid-Calder, South Queensferry, Ratho and Winchburgh) In 1914 A Squadron was assembled at Dunbar, B and D Squadrons in Edinburgh and C Squadron in Hawick. Intensive training took place to convert the unit from a mounted infantry to a cavalry role. At the end of July 1915, the regiment itself was split up. A Squadron was posted to the 26th Division on Salisbury Plain; B Squadron accompanied by R.H.Q. and the Machine Gun Sction, joined the 25th Division and D Squadron joined the 22nd Division, both formations being stationed in Aldershot. The following information on WW2 dress gives distinct information regarding the regimental tradition of wearing both collar and arm (Cpls and above) badges: "On assuming the role of divisional cavalry in 1939, the 1st Lothians lost the privilege of wearing the cloth tank insignia and when the unit went to France in 1940, the only permissible ornamentation on the blouse was the sign of the 48th (T.A.) Division, the blue macaw on a red background. Later it was decided that collar badges would be worn, at least by WOs and NCOs, during the period when the regiment served with the 51st (Highland) Division". "The reformed 1st Lothians chose the much greener shade of blanco for webbing equipment and collar badges were also issued to all ranks. Sleeve badges made a reappearance, worn on the chevrons (rather than above as in earlier times) by corporals and sergeants as an 'optional' extra, Those WOs who accepted the privilege, wore the gold-wire garb beneath their rank insignia". For Willywombat: The Lothians and Border Horse have a website that is largely reliant on photos from WW2 and I am sure that they would very much appreciate a copy of your WW1 photo: http://www.1stlothia...uk/history.html There is a book on the regiment: "Sabres to Scout Cars — An Illustrated History of The Lothians and Border Horse" by Andrew S. Gardiner. You can download a complete copy of the history of the regiment? Free of charge, care of archive.org: The war record of 4th Bn, KOSB and Lothians and Border Horse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willywombat Posted 23 April , 2012 Author Share Posted 23 April , 2012 Well, I seem to have sparked a debate at least! I'm very grateful to everyone who has entered into the spirit of this so enthusiastically. The time and trouble you've taken in particular, Frogsmile, is very much appreciated. I will suggest the museum link to the chap who owns the photo. Bob. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Hastings Posted 23 April , 2012 Share Posted 23 April , 2012 Initially like Frogsmile I immediately thought 7th Londons until read further into Post. Among other units I'm ex Yeomanry and as Cpls we wore the collar badge also above our stripes and I believe that was a long-standing tradition in the unit - remember it from Regimental Museum displays. So think yeomanry probably right. Hope this helps if only a little, best wishes Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 23 April , 2012 Share Posted 23 April , 2012 Well, I seem to have sparked a debate at least! I'm very grateful to everyone who has entered into the spirit of this so enthusiastically. The time and trouble you've taken in particular, Frogsmile, is very much appreciated. I will suggest the museum link to the chap who owns the photo. Bob. Thank you for the kind words, but member "7t2nd Swinger" deserves kudos as the first one to ID the Lothians I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ATNOMIS Posted 23 April , 2012 Share Posted 23 April , 2012 Not even close... Grr I'll get one right some day. lol Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Robertson Posted 26 April , 2012 Share Posted 26 April , 2012 Definately L&B Horse @ 1915 and somewhere in East Lothian I would suspect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sw63 Posted 6 July , 2012 Share Posted 6 July , 2012 Sorry to throw a spanner in the works with regard to the L&BY, but they didn't have turn-down collars at the time. See: http://www.flickr.co...hian/222835325/ Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 6 July , 2012 Share Posted 6 July , 2012 Sorry to throw a spanner in the works with regard to the L&BY, but they didn't have turn-down collars at the time. See: http://www.flickr.co...hian/222835325/ Simon That's a uniform that they would have worn in the UK Simon (and commonly adopted by other yeomanry units in the years just after the 2nd Boer War), but not what they would have worn in the field after mobilisation in 1914. I don't think there is any doubt now that the OP's photos are of L&BY after mobilisation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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