mcfc1923 Posted 9 August , 2004 Share Posted 9 August , 2004 Hello everyone. wonder if anyone can help. Seen 2 ww1 cap badges that i like, one is a Connaught Rangers, J.R. Gaunt, and the other is Westmorland & Cumberland, also J.R. Gaunt. Because they are both maker marked, does this mean they are genuine and not a copy or restrike?. Now I know it's a daft question to ask because it should be my own choice, but, which of the two badges would you experts out there go for?. And if anyone could give me any tips on how to spot a less than genuine cap badge would be more than grateful. Many thanks Jim mcfc1923 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrB Posted 9 August , 2004 Share Posted 9 August , 2004 I would go for the Westmoreland and Cumberland, as a Yo-yo unit it is much more scarce than the Connaught Rangers one. Makers name of Gaunt not important unless it says "Birmingham" since that is where they relocated in the 70's before making many of their more noted restrikes. The Gaunt label may be stamped on the slider. I have rarely seen a makers name on a WWI British-made badge, although the Canadians and to some extent, the Aussies were far more through in their labeling. The only one I have with a makers plate is an RFC officers badge in bronze with tabs for fastening with the makers name of "Gaunt, London" impressed on a small plate on the back of same. Try to bend the badge. If it bends easily, its probably a fake as the original fasteners were not soldered on, but "sweated" on with heat. This makes the badge very difficult to bend. Also, the propensity of fakers is to use a 'brassy' brass, if you will. An almost golden type whereas the originals utilized "gilding metal" which had a much higher copper content in the brass and give it an almost "copper-brass" look. The fakers haven't caught on to this yet (at least most of them) Also try to remember that "It looks aged" won't fly. Anyone can "age" a badge with realitive ease. Good luck DrB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ian Bowbrick Posted 9 August , 2004 Share Posted 9 August , 2004 Anyone can "age" a badge with realitive ease. A coal fire always helps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcfc1923 Posted 9 August , 2004 Author Share Posted 9 August , 2004 Both badges have Gaunt- London on slider,not good news as i only want to collect 100% badges, but at least it's saved me some pennies. you gave us some sound advice, the badges certainly look the part, but like you say it's not hard to make something look aged, my girlfriend has done a great job with me. cheers DrB Jim mcfc1923 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcfc1923 Posted 10 August , 2004 Author Share Posted 10 August , 2004 what if a badge just has J.R. Gaunt on the slider, is it still a dud? mcfc1923 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harribobs Posted 10 August , 2004 Share Posted 10 August , 2004 In my limited experience, i would be quite happy to accept Gaunt stamped badges as originals (bearing in mind the previous post by DrB about birmingham) it is a fact that there are so many restrikes and outright fakes around, you have got to make a personal decision on each badge in it's own right. I have badges in my collection that I know are restrikes but for what I paid for them and until I can improve on them, I am happy to keep them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrB Posted 10 August , 2004 Share Posted 10 August , 2004 Jim....The name stamped on the slider really is not significant unless it says "Birmingham" as well. As I stated before, I have rarely seen a British-made WWI badge marked by the maker, but that does not mean they don't exist. It could be a replacement slider as well. Sliders were usually made of golden brass, so the gilding metal criteria does not come into play here. Sliders were originally produced to enable the badge to be slipped into the folds of a "pag" on a foreign service helmet, but it was soon discovered that often the badge would be lost if worn in a cap as it sould simply fall out. Hence, the split-pin arrangement. Again, this is not a criteria because I own some Victorian glengarry badges that have the split pin arrangement vice the slider. Both were used. I know, confusing as h... isn't it? The officers used tabs of course, on their bronze field service cap badges. Good luck with your selection! I know for certain that the Connaught Rangers one has been reproduced as that regiment is very popular. Unfortunately, the yo-yos are also becoming popular as the source for the legimitate stuff is drying up. (I agree with harribobs above note..if you can't buy legit, buy fake. At least it is in your collection!) DrB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin B Posted 10 August , 2004 Share Posted 10 August , 2004 Does the vendor say the badge is genuine and does the price reflect this ? Are you buying face to face or over the net ? The market is literally flooded with restrike rubbish and I wouldn't buy anything like this over the net. The Connaught badge is almost certainly a copy and sadly the Yeomanry one may well be the same. As noted above, buy fakes if you need to but be sure that both you and the vendor acknowledge that the badges are copies and that the price reflects this. E Bay especially is the haunt of fakes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSMMo Posted 10 August , 2004 Share Posted 10 August , 2004 I have my grandfather's RGA hatpiece from WW1 which I KNOW is genuine and it is stamped "Firmin London" on the piece itself, right behind the crown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harribobs Posted 10 August , 2004 Share Posted 10 August , 2004 CSMMo can I ask? is it on a small tablet ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcfc1923 Posted 12 August , 2004 Author Share Posted 12 August , 2004 In my limited experience, i would be quite happy to accept Gaunt stamped badges as originals (bearing in mind the previous post by DrB about birmingham) it is a fact that there are so many restrikes and outright fakes around, you have got to make a personal decision on each badge in it's own right. I have badges in my collection that I know are restrikes but for what I paid for them and until I can improve on them, I am happy to keep them. I understand what your saying harribobs and i agree. where i make the mistake is buying what i think is genuine, but turns out to be a restrike, and then just feel like getting rid of it. I would have thought that the amount of men that were involved in ww1, that the market would have been flooded with genuine badges, but ther again they were not all able to come home with ther badges. will certainly take a different view as to the way i collect in future which will include paying the right price for a restrike that i thought was genuine. thanks harribobs much appreciated mcfc1923 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcfc1923 Posted 12 August , 2004 Author Share Posted 12 August , 2004 Jim....The name stamped on the slider really is not significant unless it says "Birmingham" as well. As I stated before, I have rarely seen a British-made WWI badge marked by the maker, but that does not mean they don't exist. It could be a replacement slider as well. Sliders were usually made of golden brass, so the gilding metal criteria does not come into play here. Sliders were originally produced to enable the badge to be slipped into the folds of a "pag" on a foreign service helmet, but it was soon discovered that often the badge would be lost if worn in a cap as it sould simply fall out. Hence, the split-pin arrangement. Again, this is not a criteria because I own some Victorian glengarry badges that have the split pin arrangement vice the slider. Both were used. I know, confusing as h... isn't it? The officers used tabs of course, on their bronze field service cap badges. Good luck with your selection! I know for certain that the Connaught Rangers one has been reproduced as that regiment is very popular. Unfortunately, the yo-yos are also becoming popular as the source for the legimitate stuff is drying up. (I agree with harribobs above note..if you can't buy legit, buy fake. At least it is in your collection!) DrB Learning more in 5 mins of reading replies than searching the world web. would a replacment slider make any difference to the price of a badge? thank you DrB that was one visit to the doctor that i enjoyed mcfc1923 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcfc1923 Posted 12 August , 2004 Author Share Posted 12 August , 2004 Does the vendor say the badge is genuine and does the price reflect this ? Are you buying face to face or over the net ? The market is literally flooded with restrike rubbish and I wouldn't buy anything like this over the net. The Connaught badge is almost certainly a copy and sadly the Yeomanry one may well be the same. As noted above, buy fakes if you need to but be sure that both you and the vendor acknowledge that the badges are copies and that the price reflects this. E Bay especially is the haunt of fakes. I buy from Marxmarx2002, on ebay, and in his desciption on his auctions he does say on some badges that they are genuine. I have to be honest and say that 90% of the badges i have purchased from him i have been more than happy with, but then again i ain't no expert that's for sure. I recently bought an officers cap badge from him but the lugs were missing, i knew about this in advance, but i have come to the conclusion that this was a bad investment . to be honest i don't know for sure the type of prices i should be paying. cheers martin B mcfc1923 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harribobs Posted 12 August , 2004 Share Posted 12 August , 2004 No probs MCFC I am sure you'll end up with a massive collection as for the badge without the lugs, I think you're probably more likey to have an original than a copy. I have a few that are not complete, missing one or two lugs but the face of the badge is complete. I am more than happy with them On the manchester pals badge i use as an avatar one lug has been knocked about 30 degrees off centre, and i have other rare badges without their lugs that still maintain high value I understand what you mean about expecting there to be lots of WW1 badges still around, indeed when i was young (i'm 50 now) all the kids i knew had their fathers and grandfathers badges and medals, but the intervening years saw a lot of dis-interest. Of course these days they are seen as a money making scheme, shame really Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcfc1923 Posted 12 August , 2004 Author Share Posted 12 August , 2004 well i feel a lot better now knowing that at least one of my badges is more than likely genuine, like you say, it is a shame that it's now seen as a form of making a quick few pounds, but that's wher the likes of me and you and many others have to dance with the devil, but to be honest i should'nt be casting the first stone, been guilty of selling badges for profit, ----- then blowing it all on fakes. Wanted to ask you harribobs, the link to the web page at the bottom of your reply, the photos of the Manchester badges, are those your badges?. What i would'nt give to own those badges --- well to be honest i know exactly what i would give --- don't suppose your interested in buying a grandmother are you?, no harm in asking surely. cheers harribobs mcfc1923 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harribobs Posted 12 August , 2004 Share Posted 12 August , 2004 mcfc the msnusers site, swords and sakezuki? yes and that's my manchester's collection, do you think i should link it directly through to the manchesters page? it's my site, run for the convience of a few friends there are some nice badges, i have a brunswick star for the 2nd battalion in the pipeline as well, i have been very lucky thanks for the offer of the grannie, but that's ok Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcfc1923 Posted 12 August , 2004 Author Share Posted 12 August , 2004 Harribobs, you mean ther is not already a link directly through to the Manchesters page?. superb collection. got your site marked in Favourites. now i'm going to show my ignorence, the brunswick star?, had a quick look on google but no joy. cheers harribobs mcfc1923 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harribobs Posted 12 August , 2004 Share Posted 12 August , 2004 mcfc when i click the 'www' it goes to the sites home page? hmmm thanks glad you like the site, free feel to join this is a brunswick star, there's another pair of silver ones on the site. They are collar badges (dogs) but i'm told there are pics of them being worn as cap badges Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcfc1923 Posted 12 August , 2004 Author Share Posted 12 August , 2004 mcfc when i click the 'www' it goes to the sites home page? hmmm thanks glad you like the site, free feel to join this is a brunswick star, there's another pair of silver ones on the site. They are collar badges (dogs) but i'm told there are pics of them being worn as cap badges so ther collar badges !!!!, first time I have heard the name brunswick star. can't say that I have seen any come up for auction, never really thought about collecting dogs, are they harder to come across?. think it mite be a good idea to join your site. cheers harribobs mcfc1923 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Dave Posted 13 August , 2004 Share Posted 13 August , 2004 Is it safe to assume that a badge marked with Gaunt, London is a WW1 Badge? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSMMo Posted 13 August , 2004 Share Posted 13 August , 2004 I have my grandfather's RGA hatpiece from WW1 which I KNOW is genuine and it is stamped "Firmin London" on the piece itself, right behind the crown. Harribob, The 'Firmin" name is on a small oval piece in the indentation behind and at the top of the crown. Is that what you meant? Mike Morrison Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSMMo Posted 13 August , 2004 Share Posted 13 August , 2004 I have my grandfather's RGA hatpiece from WW1 which I KNOW is genuine and it is stamped "Firmin London" on the piece itself, right behind the crown. Harribob, The 'Firmin" name is on a small oval piece in the indentation behind and at the top of the crown. Is that what you meant? Mike Morrison Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harribobs Posted 13 August , 2004 Share Posted 13 August , 2004 Thanks mike i was wondering if it as stamped directly into the badge or as i suspected on the a 'tab or a plaque' as you say a small oval piece attached to it Mcfc i really only have experience of manchester dogs (not the dogs home) the standard WW1 dog is a great piece anyway, manreg 12 is a page of different ones, and manreg 10 shows a WW1 set and a WW2 set. There is a brunswick star on ebay at the mo item 2262556580 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrB Posted 16 August , 2004 Share Posted 16 August , 2004 I would think that "Gaunt" on a small plate on the back of the badge would make it genuine. I don't think many restrikers would go to that trouble. If it were just stamped on it, in lieu of a plate, I would be wary. Remember that Gaunt moved to B'ham in the 70's so anything after that is "contemporary" but the company stated that they were not in the restrike business and that most of their badges were legit and made for the regts named. It is those who try to pass this stuff off as genuine that irk me. As stated before, replacement attachments do not detract from the value of the badge unless you are a purist and have gobs of money to spend. It is, as stated, the face of the badge that counts. I have a sterling silver Kitchener's New Army badge of the 17th-20th Bns of the Kings Regiment which was given by Lord Derby to those who volunteered before November of '14. It has a pin fastener and was doubtless given to a sweetheart before the owner deployed to FF. Not an army-type fastener, but I wouldn't part with it for the world! DrB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now