Old Naval Uniform

[sonofcmx]

I came across this photograph some years ago and have often wondered what era the group belong to, are they Great War? The shirt collars and senior rate caps look of an age. I have also wondered just who they were. The two commanders have different insignia. Any help appreciated, there must be a story behind the picture!

[michaeldr]

Third from the left, standing at the back, appears to a Wren (Officer/PO ?)

And is that another Wren 7th along?

[Lancashire Fusilier]

I came across this photograph some years ago and have often wondered what era the group belong to, are they Great War? The shirt collars and senior rate caps look of an age. I have also wondered just who they were. The two commanders have different insignia. Any help appreciated, there must be a story behind the picture!

Looking at all the uniforms, it may be the female uniforms that give the best clue. I assume they are WRENS, and the regular WRENS were founded in 1917, then disbanded in October of 1919. A WREN Reserve was started in 1920.

The WREN unforms look very much post WW1, and it may be this is a group of Naval Reserves from the 1930's or early

1940's ?

[daggers]

I cannot see any medal ribbons on the PO uniforms.

D

[Lancashire Fusilier]

WW1 WREN Uniform.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

WW1 WREN Uniform.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

WW2 Wrens.

[sonofcmx]

Many thanks for all your replies and pictures. They do seem to be wearing a mixture of uniforms. The front row does not seem to match the rest, the two commanders don't match each other. The officers do not have the (reserves) 'wavy navy' rings or the letter R in the curl. Black cap tops would seem to indicate wartime? Reserves could well have been issued with "what's available", I have that particular experience!

[scottmarchand]

I'd say it is late or just after WW 2, there was also RNVR in addition to RNR and regulars, plety of Petty Officers in this picture. The front row are officers, the back are all ratings and senior NCO types, ladie included. The WRENS uniforms do a better job of dating it as these are defiantley not WW I styles for the ladies. Judging by the ages there I'd say it is a shore station, likely a training establishement staff picture. The blue tops are the normal service dress. The whites were worn in tropical areas or as preferred in the summer. The white tops at this time and earlier were typically a simple removeable fabric cover, verus postwar where one usually had a white crowned cap and a blue crowned cap and not a cover.

[bill24chev]

^The lack of medal ribbons on the senior ratings and the presence of one RNR officer (front left) suggests to me just early WW2. pomotion to PO took about 15 years on average between the wars so they woud have probaly enlisted in the mid to late 20's although some may have joined as boys just after WW1

[sonofcmx]

Thank you all for your ideas. I have just made out on the original,visible on the door behind two senior rates,is the letter 'N' and underneath 'Sch' which could be School, so the STAFF picture would be right. No tape on the windows? So could well be late 30's. The three senior officers have medal ribbons so may well have served WW1, but not the sub on the right , who looks old enough to have come up 'through the ranks' perhaps. All the officers' rings are different in style.

[ARABIS]

The WRNS was disbanded in 1919 & not formed again until 1939. The Leading Wren in the centre looks to have a long service stripe for three years service, so 1942 at least. Also the same Wren is wearing the "seamen's" type cap which replaced the unpopular "pudding basin" hat in 1942.

David.

The Women's Royal Naval Reserve was instituted in 1947. I've not heard of a Reserve before then, is there any evidence for a Reserve prior to 1947?

Thanks,

David.

[sonofcmx]

I have now had a reply from the Royal Naval Museum, Portsmouth. The WRNS cap and GCB date the photo 1942 or later, as suggested. The officers are a mixture of RN (round loops) and RNVR (square loops). RNR officers would have had rings made up from two separate threads intertwined. The chap far right, thin ring, is a Warrent Officer.

Again, many thanks for all your help,

LCI_164

[Magnumbellum]

The blue tops are the normal service dress. The whites were worn in tropical areas or as preferred in the summer. The white tops at this time and earlier were typically a simple removable fabric cover, versus postwar where one usually had a white crowned cap and a blue crowned cap and not a cover.

This is inaccurate. In fore-and-aft rig, as worn by officers, petty officers, and ratings in certain branches such as writers, blue caps were worn from 1 October to 30 April (by Admiralty Instructions, not "as preferred"). From 1 May to 30 September and for service in the tropics a white cover was worn over the crown, again by AIs, not, "as preferred". Wearers of square rig (bell bottoms, jumper and seaman's cap), had two different caps.

The wearing of blue caps was discontinued as part of the modernisation of naval uniform in the mid-1950s.

Apart, therefore, from the photo having been identified as not earlier than 1942, it was taken on a date between 1 October and 30 April, both dates inclusive.

[sonofcmx]

Out of interst, my father (see avatar) told me that, during the whole war he never had a white top, perhaps as he did not serve out east.

As a thought, had the photograph been in colour, the coloured bands between the officer rings would have identified branches involved, may have helped identify the group. Medical branch still use red, can't remember what the other colours were. Green for schoolie?

Laurie

[seaJane]

At the time the distinction cloths were as follows:-

Medical Scarlet

Pursers/accounting White

Engineering (from 1853) Purple

Instructors (from 1879) & schoolmasters (from 1917) Light Blue

Shipwrights (from 1884) Silver Grey

Wardmaster (medical assistants) (from 1918) Maroon till 1951, then salmon-pink

Electrical (from 1918) Dark Green

Ordnance (1918–1950) Dark Blue

[sonofcmx]

Thank you SJ,

I've been told that dentists also wore orange?

Regards

Laurie

[seaJane]

Yes, you're right - don't know how come I missed that one. Sorry!