Shotguns and Sniperscopes

[IRC Kevin]

You'll all be relieved to know that this is two separate queries!

War Diary of the 1/4th KORL mentions the issue of "Sprayer and shotgun" on May 9th 1915 as part of their trench stores. What was the sprayer? (I have this mental picture of one of those old-fashioned pumps used to spray insecticide, but presume that's all post WW1). What sort of shotgun would we be talking about? Side by side, as I'm not aware of the Winchester 1897 being issued to British troops, especially this early in the War? I can see the old waxed cartridges giving problems in the wet conditions too!

The QM of the 1/5th KORL has a number of items in his 'Special Equipment' list of 2nd April 1917 which also have me puzzled. In this, there is mention of "8 Sniperscopes" and a couple of lines down, "4 Tel. rifle sights and 4 stands." I always believed the only difference between a 'sniperscope' and a 'telescopic rifle sight' was which side of the Atlantic one was standing on at the time. Could the 'sniperscope' be a sight mounted on a rifle (as in modern practice) and the 'telescopic rifle sights and stands' be the the apparatus used with a periscope to snipe over the parapet? Can anyone post pictures of a scope-mounted SMLE from WW1, or was a civilian hunting rifle used instead?

[tipperary]

Kevin you may not be to far wrong in your vision of a sprayer they were used for various things insecticide, disinfectant,and also for spraying an anti gas agent. Would have been regarded as trench stores.john

Snipers worked in two man teams taking turn about one maning the telescope as a spotter,Snipeing in France by Major Hesketh Pritchard is a good book with info on scopes and rifles used at the time.

[centurion]

You'll all be relieved to know that this is two separate queries!

War Diary of the 1/4th KORL mentions the issue of "Sprayer and shotgun" on May 9th 1915 as part of their trench stores. What was the sprayer? (I have this mental picture of one of those old-fashioned pumps used to spray insecticide, but presume that's all post WW1).

No you're pretty close. There was a sprayer not unlike that used to spray on roses which was used to spray a very strong disinfectant. Use to cleanse mucky parts of the trench system and, grimly, bodies close to the wire that it was impossible to get at to clear away. Those old fashioned pumps had been around long before WW1.

See this excellent post http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=101922&view=findpost&p=959227

[bigjohn]

Kevin

Vermorel sprayer used to dissipate gas.

regards

John

[centurion]

Kevin

Vermorel sprayer used to dissipate gas.

regards

John

Vermorel sprayers were indeed used for this but also to spray disinfectant (and other things such as weed killer to keep the front of the wire clear of vegetation and pesticide to clear dugouts of infestations) Vermoral had been making sprayers for many years (and still do, I have one in the garage that works off an electric pump). They appear to have been the British Army's sprayer of choice. However there are also photos of Italian sanitary squads using them in the trenches.

[4thGordons]

The QM of the 1/5th KORL has a number of items in his 'Special Equipment' list of 2nd April 1917 which also have me puzzled. In this, there is mention of "8 Sniperscopes" and a couple of lines down, "4 Tel. rifle sights and 4 stands." I always believed the only difference between a 'sniperscope' and a 'telescopic rifle sight' was which side of the Atlantic one was standing on at the time. Could the 'sniperscope' be a sight mounted on a rifle (as in modern practice) and the 'telescopic rifle sights and stands' be the the apparatus used with a periscope to snipe over the parapet? Can anyone post pictures of a scope-mounted SMLE from WW1, or was a civilian hunting rifle used instead?

I'll have a stab at the second bit:

It maybe that there were what we would call "spotting scopes" (ie telescopes) to by used by scout/snipers and their assistants in addition to telescopic sites fitted to the rifles. Although to be honest I would have expected the sniperscopes to be paired with the stands.

One alternative for the stand is rifle "siting-in" stands (basically clamps that hold a rifle steady to allow it to be aimed and fired and sights adjusted, although I am not sure I would expect these to held at the battalion level.

The earliest form of optical sights fitted to SMLEs were "Lattey Optical Sights" these did not have a tube (ie they were not a scope) but a lense was attached to the foresight and mounted on the rear sight and they worked to maginfy by the same galilean principle (this was first used in 1915) other versions were purchased made by BSA (and possibly another maker) These had a magnification of about 2-3x and were rather fragile (also had a narrow field of view)

Later more traditional telescopic sights were approved - these were almost all mounted to the side of the action (offset) rather than directly over it alomg the centreline which allowed charger loading as normal. Various styles of mount were used, as were a number of different designs of telescopic sights from various manufacturers (Persicope Prism Co.- I think this accounted for the largest number - but also Winchester and Aldis) these were usually mounted to the rifle by the gun-trade under official contract. I do not think these are listed in the LoC so the date of their introduction would probably take some working out...

Ian Skennerton has written a sepatate volume on these variations (The British Sniper) which I do not own.

Hesketh Pritchard's "Sniping in France" might also supply useful detail -- I have a copy of this and will have a look for you.

Chris

[IRC Kevin]

Many thanks, Gentlemen, that's sorted most of my queries out. I suspect the shotgun was probably a traditional 'side by side'. This was the only mention of it I can find in any of the surviving paperwork of the three battalions I'm researching and I suspect it was soon abandoned as useless- there's no mention of shotgun ammunition in the later ammunition returns, so probably no longer held.

[MikeMeech]

Hi All

Reference to shotgun use in 1915, I seem to recall from my reading of various books that the American troops used shotguns (pump action I think) in 1917-18, so were they any more successful? They would have had the same cartridge problems I presume.

Of course shotgun cartridges were not the only 'munition' to have problems with dampness, the ground flares used by infantry to show their location to Contact Patrol aeroplanes also had this problem, this was 'solved' by re-using old small coco tins to carry one or two flares in to keep them dry in the soldier's pocket. There must also been a problem with keeping the Very Pistol cartridges damp free as well.

Mike

[centurion]

Many thanks, Gentlemen, that's sorted most of my queries out. I suspect the shotgun was probably a traditional 'side by side'. This was the only mention of it I can find in any of the surviving paperwork of the three battalions I'm researching and I suspect it was soon abandoned as useless- there's no mention of shotgun ammunition in the later ammunition returns, so probably no longer held.

Its a long shot (no pun intended) but I believe that 12 gauge flare cartridges were available for firing from a shotgun. The Harrington and Richardson (New England Firearms) single barrel shotgun appears to have been sold in WW1 as a shoulder fired flare gun. Whilst bulkier than a flare pistol a shot gun fired flare might go higher and be visible from further afield. Tony E might know.

[tipperary]

Any chance shotguns issued for vermin control?john

[Doc2]

Hi All

Reference to shotgun use in 1915, I seem to recall from my reading of various books that the American troops used shotguns (pump action I think) in 1917-18, so were they any more successful? They would have had the same cartridge problems I presume.

Of course shotgun cartridges were not the only 'munition' to have problems with dampness, the ground flares used by infantry to show their location to Contact Patrol aeroplanes also had this problem, this was 'solved' by re-using old small coco tins to carry one or two flares in to keep them dry in the soldier's pocket. There must also been a problem with keeping the Very Pistol cartridges damp free as well.

Mike

Not my area, so no references available, but the US used all-brass shotshells during WWI (and up until Viet-Nam, actually). Shotguns were extremely effective in trench warfare, to the extent that the Germans called them illegal and tried to get them banned under the Geneva Conventions. Doc

[centurion]

Not my area, so no references available, but the US used all-brass shotshells during WWI (and up until Viet-Nam, actually). Shotguns were extremely effective in trench warfare, to the extent that the Germans called them illegal and tried to get them banned under the Geneva Conventions. Doc

There's a thread on this somewhere. The Americans certainly used them in 1918 and there were German protests as you say. These however were combat shotguns. There is no evidence that the British Army used them although it has been suggested that some British officers carried 'personal' sporting shotguns into battle as they would appear to be carrying long arms (and therefore less likely to be picked off) and the shotgun would be more effective at short range in a trench. However any long barrelled weapon might be awkward in a trench and sawn offs are said to have been carried in trench raids. However converters were available to allow 12 gauge shot gun cartridges to be fired by flare pistols which might have been easier in close combat.

[truthergw]

Any chance shotguns issued for vermin control?john

I feel that rat hunts in trenches or dugouts, armed with shotguns may not have been considered a very good idea. A terrier and a stick seem to have been the weapon of choice.

[Thunderbox]

I'm sure that shotguns as part of trench stores would be intended for vermin control, and that any related entry to sprayers would also be connected with sanitation. The Army would undoubtedly have compiled and issued a "sanitation pack" to address the health threats posed by human waste, refuse, corpses, vermin and refuse.

On the issue of rat hunts, I imagine that most rat veterans would soon have worked out where they were safe from being thumped with a shovel. IIRC they often ran along the parapets or "on top" where humans could not venture.

[IRC Kevin]

There's a thread on this somewhere. The Americans certainly used them in 1918 and there were German protests as you say. These however were combat shotguns. There is no evidence that the British Army used them although it has been suggested that some British officers carried 'personal' sporting shotguns into battle as they would appear to be carrying long arms (and therefore less likely to be picked off) and the shotgun would be more effective at short range in a trench. However any long barrelled weapon might be awkward in a trench and sawn offs are said to have been carried in trench raids. However converters were available to allow 12 gauge shot gun cartridges to be fired by flare pistols which might have been easier in close combat.

The thought of firing something as light as a flare pistol loaded with '00' Buck brings tears to my eyes.

[centurion]

I would concur that sprayers in store in early May 1915 were unlikely to be there as an anti gas tool. The first German gas attack had only been a week or so earlier and I doubt if any coherent approach to clearing trenches of gas had yet been arrived at much less equipment despatched. That these sprayers were used as an anti gas tool later is undeniable but they would not be in trench stores for that purpose at this date.

However I don't think that the shotgun (or guns?) would be there for rats. They were not the preferred tool in civilian life dogs, traps and poison being used (the cost of a shot gun cartridge making shooting rats one by one a very expensive process). Individual rats may have been potted for 'sport'. Rats having very poor eyesight prefer to navigate along straight edges (junctions of wall and floor, drains and sumps, pipes etc and in the dark. That's why they have to be flushed out by small dogs if you want to wang them with an entrenching tool. They have an instinctive dislike of running across an open space, in daylight as one of their natural predators before they started taking lodgings with mankind were birds of prey (and still are - I have seen more than one of our local buzzards with a rat in it's talons). So I doubt that they would be on top in daylight where you could pot them with a shotgun. I have heard of one officer who used to sleep in his dug out with a flash light and his revolver by his bunk. He would wake, sit up and switch on the flash light and then snap shoot any rat caught in its beam. He was not popular with the other human occupants.

[centurion]

The thought of firing something as light as a flare pistol loaded with '00' Buck brings tears to my eyes.

Nevertheless converters were made (and still are).

[MikB]

Apart from the telescopic sights fitted to the rifles, snipers and observers would use telescopes with and without stands to inspect enemy earthworks and occupied buildings both for possible sniping targets and potential intelligence information.

The issue telescopes most often in use were the Tel. Sig. Mk.III and IV, originally intended for use in Signalling stations with heliographs in late Victorian times, but adopted later as the General Service or 'GS' telescope. This was a traditional 3-draw brass telescope with leather-covered barrel and end caps. There were many makers, including Ross, Taylor Taylor & Hobson and Negretti & Zambra, but perhaps the most numerous was R & J Beck. These telescopes had a 2" objective and two eyepieces for 15 and 30x magnification, and those by the better makers were optically excellent - but all were very heavy at over 4lb and clumsy with their leather bondage sets of straps and caps.

There were also many privately-owned telescopes of good quality, especially in the hands of experienced game stalkers and ghillies from the Scottish Highlands in scouting role. These would again often be 2" 3-draw with 20 - 30x magnification, but would usually be (much) lighter and cased so as be free of encumbrance in use. The WW2 Scout Regiment telescope copied this configuration.

Regards,

MikB