.38 revolver

[Khaki]

Who made the British made .38 cal revolver during the Great War, was it Webley? I am only familiar with the WW2 Webley .38, was this the same model, what was its appearance and markings (date) etc??

khaki

[4thGordons]

Who made the British made .38 cal revolver during the Great War, was it Webley? I am only familiar with the WW2 Webley .38, was this the same model, what was its appearance and markings (date) etc??

khaki

I am not sure to which weapon you are referring.

The .38 revolver (Pistol, Revolver No2 MkI) of WWII manufactured by Enfield and Albion Motors was very similar in design to the Great War Webley (which in 1926 became the Pistol, Revolver No1) and indeed during WWII Webley and Scott produced the Mk IV .38 revolver but the Revolver No2 was not adopted until @1932 (there were later marks that were D/A only without a hammer-spur) There had IIRC been a Webley MkIII in .38/200 introduced in the 1930s and issued to various colonial police forces (HK? Singapore?)

but I am not sure what "the British made .38 cal revolver during the Great War" was.

While the private purchase of handguns for officers meant there were a number of weapons used (and purchases from Spain and eleswhere complicate this) as far as I am aware the .38/200 or .38 webley cartridge was not introduced until the early 1920s

I believe there were several US revolvers chambered for .38 special, a calibre that had been introduced at the turn of the century and became (and remains) popular in revolvers - although I think by WWI most US service revolvers were in .45

Chris

[Radlad]

I'm not aware of any British made .38 cal revolvers available for service use at the time. Webley did make a few Semi auto's in .38acp and .380 acp but they are so rare that I would dicount them. I believe TonyE listed the pistol ammunition purchaced during WW1 by the British government and this list included the above and .38sp.

The term '.38 revolver', could it be journalistic licence? . Both revolvers and semi autos were used in variations of that calibre but but I don't think any were British produced. Most were purchaced from the USA.

[Doc2]

I believe that the Webley-Fosbery was available in a .38 (actually, .38 automatic) caliber, as was at least one version of the British Bull Dog, produced by Webley. I think the small caliber (.32 and .38) versions were not marked "British Bull Dog", but they were essentially the same weapon. Since the question did not specifically ask for "issue" weapons information, I think we should not forget the civil market. Doc

[Khaki]

I was curious because a previous post under ( Holster Identification Post #4 )which mentions a shortage of revolvers that was supplemented by S&W .38 and OTHERS the bulk of which went to the navy etc. I would have thought that Webley may have produced the others. I have also seen in a book a photograph of a British serviceman, RFC I think who was touted as a champion pistol shot during the Great War and he is definitely holding in his hand a revolver almost identical to the service Webley .38 cal no.4.

khaki

[4thGordons]

I think the S&W revolvers Tony mentioned were .38 Special Hand Ejector ("Military and Police") style revolvers introduced in this calibre in @1905.

Where you read the "and others" to imply a British manufacturer and guessed Webley, I would have read it to suggest purchased from other external (ie US) sources, on the basis that Webley's efforts would have been directed towards maximizing production of the .455 revolvers.

Doc2's suggestions are good ones and it would be intersting to examine the picture you mention (does the picture date from WWI? If it is a post war - perhaps 1930s picture of an individual who was a champion shot during the war this might resolve it!)

Chris

[Khaki]

I may be a little closer to the answer, while searching the web for Webley's I have now seen a c1918 manual for a Webley& Scott New Service revolver Mk4 ,38 cal. That is pretty much what I saw in the Great War photo that I mentioned, I will try to locate the photograph/book to which I referred. I have to admit when I saw the airman I was quite surprised. I may also buy the manual as it is something that I was unaware of , I thought as others that the Mk4 was a 1920's development. Maybe the 20's was when the military formally adopted it,but it may have been in inventory for some time.

thanks

khaki

[Doc2]

How about the .380 Webley MkIII 'Police and Civilian' revolver introduced about 1897? Not issued very much to the military, but some references say a few hundred were so issued. Fired the .380/200 or .38 S&W round. Note: Mark III, Not Mark IV. Doc

[Khaki]

Thanks Doc,

I did have a look at the Mk3 as a possibility, however unless there were variations that I haven't seen, it looks too much like a pocket pistol with it's short barrel and small grips. Maybe someone out there as a definitive book on the Webley and can provide an answer as to when the Mk4 .(38 cal), actually went into production, the manual that I saw would suggest that it's older than I thought.

khaki

[Khaki]

I think I am chasing ghost's on this one insomuch that I am putting 2+2 together and getting five. I think I will leave this topic alone and hope that some experts (Webley) will clarify the production records. I really can't find anything definitive to support Mk4 production in the Great War, and the thoughts that the photo may have been postwar may be correct,( I still haven't located it yet). Thank you for the previous comments.

khaki

[MikB]

Thanks Doc,

I did have a look at the Mk3 as a possibility, however unless there were variations that I haven't seen, it looks too much like a pocket pistol with it's short barrel and small grips. Maybe someone out there as a definitive book on the Webley and can provide an answer as to when the Mk4 .(38 cal), actually went into production, the manual that I saw would suggest that it's older than I thought.

khaki

A source I've seen said design of the Mk.IV .38 started in 1926.

A Mk.III .38 I once examined was indeed a pocket pistol and must have been pre-WW1 as it had (IIRC) black powder proof marks. These would have been pretty desirable as backup pistols in the trenches and all available supplies would have been purchased privately by officers even if not officially contracted to WD. Not the clout of a .455, but a good deal better than the poor quality .32s some had to make do with. The one I looked at was marked .38-200 and shot quite well with 200-grain bullets.

Regards,

MikB

[TonyE]

The development of the Mark IV .38 did not start at Webley's until 1921 so the pistol was not available in WWI. However the Mark III, although a pocket pistol, was available with large grips and in this guise looks very similar to a Mark IV. 300 pistols of this pattern were sold to the Indian Army in 1933 (see Bruce & Reinhart, page 159) but whether it was available in WWI for private purchase I do not know.

The Royal Navy had purchased 90 Smith & Wessson Hand Ejector revolvers in .38 Special from the trade in 1915 for service on HMS Humber, Mersey and Severn (River monitors purchased from Brazil) and had also been offered .38 S & W revolvers by the Ministry of Munitions as there were not sufficient .455 inch Webleys available. Although the Navy declined these they seem to have taken some into service along with a few .38 Harrington and Richardson revolvers.

I have found no record of official army use of .38 pistols but of course there were sufficient private purchase Colts and Webleys in both .38ACP and .380ACP for the ammunition to be available through the official channels. Haig carried a Webley in .38ACP.

Regards

TonyE

[Khaki]

Thanks Tony,

Interesting data as usual, I totally agree that if the photo wasn't post war, then it was probably a Mk111.

khaki

[Radlad]

Thanks Tony,

Interesting data as usual, I totally agree that if the photo wasn't post war, then it was probably a Mk111.

khaki

RE. Your post no.5

Is there anything in the text or picture caption that identifies the pistol as a .38? Could it be a WG target model in that particular photo.?

I'm only suggesting this as target pistol shooting in those days revolved around service calibre's . I can't see O/R's having the opportunity to become 'Champion pistol shots' during WW1 , but it is quite possible for an officer,and he would have his private purchase sidearm.