centurion Posted 3 April , 2012 Share Posted 3 April , 2012 We've had a lot of good stuff on Allied AA at Salonika. I have found this which appears to be from the other side - ie a Bulgarian AA gun. As the text with it is Bulgarian I cannot confirm this and I may be talking rubbish again. Can anyone confirm (not that I'm talking rubbish again but what gun this is) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikB Posted 3 April , 2012 Share Posted 3 April , 2012 I think it's Jerry's 88 Flak 18, in the wrong war... Regards, MikB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 3 April , 2012 Author Share Posted 3 April , 2012 I think it's Jerry's 88 Flak 18, in the wrong war... Regards, MikB Those look very like WW1 uniforms. One of the accompanying photos was WW1 I think Germany had an 88mm in WW1 as well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 3 April , 2012 Share Posted 3 April , 2012 centurion, Could it be a German 8,8cm K.Zugflak L/45, Krupp, possibly used by the Bulgarians during WW1 ? Photograph attached showing Bulgarian troops using the gun, the photograph is undated. Bulgarian designation : 88-мм Д-45 противоаеропланно оръдие “Круп” German designation : 8,8cm K.Zugflak L/45, Krupp Calibre : 88mm L/45 Weight in action : 3010 kg Weight in marching order : 7300 kg Barrel length : 3960 m Cartridge size : 88 x 560 x 113 R weight : 15.3 kg (13.7 kg for barrage fire) charge : 2.44 kg (1.09 kg for barrage fire) 8,8 cm Spgr. L/3,6 Flak : 9.6 kg – bursting charge : 600 g Fp. 60/40 8,8cm Schr. 17 : 9.6 kg – 250 bullets Muzzle velocity : 765 m/s Max. range horizontal : 10800 m (8200 m with time fuze) vertical : 6850 m Ammunition for barrage fire Cartridge size : 88 x 571 x 111 R weight : 2.8 kg charge : 1.09 kg for barrage fire Muzzle velocity : 542 m/s Max. range horizontal : 9800 m (7300 m with time fuze) vertical : 5200 m Elevation : + 70° / 0 Azimuth : 360° Rate of fire : 10 rounds a minute Transport : towed by a tractor Krupp-Daimler KD I Remarks : Anti-aircraft gun with semiautomatic sliding-wedge breech-block, two spring equalizers to compensate for the weight of the barrel, and a pneumatic recuperator. It was mounted on a 4 wheels trailers towed on specially fitted army lorries. When in action arms with jacks were swung out to form a secure firing platform. In 1917 this gun was extremely mobile, and could swiftly be ready to fire. A similar gun was built by Rheinmetall in 1916. In 1917 German Army used some of these guns to protect ports of Black Sea (Varna and Burgas). At least three of them were used by Bulgarian Army during, or more likely after, the First World War. They were still in used by Bulgarian Air Defence in 1920s-1930s. LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikB Posted 3 April , 2012 Share Posted 3 April , 2012 Those look very like WW1 uniforms. One of the accompanying photos was WW1 I think Germany had an 88mm in WW1 as well Maybe, but I still think it looks a helluva lot more like a Flak 18 than it does Lanc's Zugflak. Regards, MikB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cnock Posted 3 April , 2012 Share Posted 3 April , 2012 Hi, WWI Bulgarians with German 10,5 cm Flak Cnock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Tom Posted 3 April , 2012 Share Posted 3 April , 2012 The piece first posted looks to my inexpert eye much like a WW2 equipment. The features described in post 4 seem quite advanced for WW1. Perhaps one of the experts can make some fairly general comparison of the 'state of the art' of AA artillery deployed by the various powers in 1918. Old Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 3 April , 2012 Author Share Posted 3 April , 2012 Taking up the suggestions I have found photos of the 8.8 cm Kw-Flak of WW1 which looks very similar to the photo I posted. It had a muzzle velocity of 2355 ft p sec and an effective range of 20550 vertical. It looks much like the WW2 Flak-18 version with a folding cruciform platform (it had a similar carriage as well). I have found a photo of the 10.5 cm Kw-Flak of WW1 (the Rheinmetal version) which does not look like the gun in the photo I posted. However I have not found a photo of the Krupp version. The uniforms in both photos are WW1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 3 April , 2012 Share Posted 3 April , 2012 Although not Bulgarian Army, the attached photograph does show a mobile version of a WW1 8.8 cm Flak Gun, again similar to that shown in post #1. The unit is K-Flak Batterie 188. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikB Posted 3 April , 2012 Share Posted 3 April , 2012 And I still think it's a Flak 18 in the first photo. Look at the drain plug on the front end of the top recoil cylinder - I've not seen one like that on anything other than the Flak 18. The 1916 Flak has visible geared elevation quadrants, vertical hydraulic cylinders under the cradle, and a rivetted shroud enclosing the rear barrel. I think it's the same model in both Lanc's pics, and it's not what's in the OP pic. Regards, MikB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 3 April , 2012 Author Share Posted 3 April , 2012 Well the Bulgarians did have three 8.8 Cm Kw-flaks and those are WW1 uniforms Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 3 April , 2012 Author Share Posted 3 April , 2012 http://www.bulgarian...201917_FlaK.htm Click on the bottom right photo to expand. Note the same camouflage pattern as in my original photo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikB Posted 3 April , 2012 Share Posted 3 April , 2012 Nope, it's still a Flak 18 in your first pic. Look at the long arcs under the cradle in the WW1 gun, absent in your first pic, and the shroud around the barrel rear. It's the same gun as in Lanc's pic, and not the same as in your first - which looks incidentally substantially larger and better engineered, like an L/56 as against an L/45. Regards, MikB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockdoc Posted 4 April , 2012 Share Posted 4 April , 2012 I don't know any details of Bulgarian AA equipment but I do know that they deployed some of it in the north end of the Struma Valley, in the area of the Rupel Pass. The XVI Corps British AA Sections in the Valley tended to record Allied aircraft movements as well as those of the enemy and planes flying towards Rupel were usually reported as being engaged by enemy AA guns. There are no instances of an Allied plane being brought down recorded in the British Diaries. The XII Corps AA Sections on the Doiran front didn't record enemy AA activity, unfortunately, so I have no info on what was happening in that area. I'd imagine there would be some AA guns near Hudova aerodrome, which is in the Vardar valley, but I wonder whether something as big as this could be taken up into the hills. The British and French used lighter, mobile guns for this and I wouldn't be surprised if the Germans and Bulgarians did the same. Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 4 April , 2012 Author Share Posted 4 April , 2012 I don't know any details of Bulgarian AA equipment but I do know that they deployed some of it in the north end of the Struma Valley, in the area of the Rupel Pass. The XVI Corps British AA Sections in the Valley tended to record Allied aircraft movements as well as those of the enemy and planes flying towards Rupel were usually reported as being engaged by enemy AA guns. There are no instances of an Allied plane being brought down recorded in the British Diaries. The XII Corps AA Sections on the Doiran front didn't record enemy AA activity, unfortunately, so I have no info on what was happening in that area. I'd imagine there would be some AA guns near Hudova aerodrome, which is in the Vardar valley, but I wonder whether something as big as this could be taken up into the hills. The British and French used lighter, mobile guns for this and I wouldn't be surprised if the Germans and Bulgarians did the same. Keith From what I've read many Bulgarian guns were German built using captured Russian 7.62 Cm FK 00 and 02 field gun tubes and breeches. These would likely be in the Struma valley etc The bigger guns were used to defend strategic targets such as ports, railway hubs etc although the 88s were quite mobile for their size - the carriage and tractor forming an articulated vehicle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockdoc Posted 7 April , 2012 Share Posted 7 April , 2012 The Central Powers forces on the Doiran Front were supplied by the railhead at Gradsko, which is quite a way north of the front line, and presumably brought down the railway line south from there towards Hudova, where there was a main aerodrome, and Guevgueli along the Vardar Valley. As you'll see for yourself soon, there are north-south valleys but not of routes a lot going east-west so distributing supplies wouldn't have been at all easy. The existing roads were more likely to be donkey tracks than anything else and the British put a great deal of effort into improving them. I'd expect that the Central Powers would have to do likewise. The British did have Holt tractors in the Kilindir-Karasouli area for the bigger guns and they managed to get the AA gun lorries onto the tops of the hills, though the inference from the war diaries is often that they wangled the gun up there and kept the rest of the motor transport in a more suitable location. The walk up to Grand Couronee is over what are believed to be Bulgarian supply roads and they're more than capable of taking lorries of the period, I'd say, so if the need for guns on the hills was sufficient I'm sure access roads could and would have been made by both sides. How the Struma Front was supplied by the CP I have no idea but they did come down the Rupel Pass from Bulgaria so that's one possibility. Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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