14 star trios

[PhilB]

A recent post concerning a 14 trio to a man KIA 1/7/16 made me think that they seem to be a low percentage of the medals to those killed that day. A back of an envelope calculation indicates that 39 of 221 battalions involved on the day were regular (17.6%). The unknown quantity is the proportion of 1914 men still with the regulars. If we say 50%, then, of the 19,000 men killed, some 1672 men would have had 14 star trios, about 1 in 12. They do seem to be rarer than that, though, so the guesstimate of 50% is probably too high. Any views? Phil B

[David_Bluestein]

Hello Phil,

I have one tucked safely in my collection to the 1st Bn. Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers. I have only ever seen one or two other then mine in twenty+ years of looking.

[HarryBettsMCDCM]

As many of the Original BEF Members had been Killed or wounded by 1915,the % of those still serving @ the time of the Somme must have been low,the regular Battalions having been re~inforced with New Blood{literally as it was to be} by then,so even the Regulars would have been made up of "Kitchener Men" Etc;Also those who had survived until then had probably learnt to keep their heads down a bit as best they could under the circumstances!That said my Great Uncle "Stanley" Charles Henry Vanhinsbergh,Lance Corporal,2nd KOYLI,a Pre War Regular, was a 1914 Star Man{I only wish I had his Medals & Plaque}who died on that Infamous Day

[PhilB]

Likewise, David, I just have one tucked away (2 Duke of Wellingtons), and I don`t recall refusing any over the years, so my estimate looks high.

Yes, HB, the regulars would have learned to keep their heads down by then and have a lower casualty rate than the "young and inexperienced". Which brings us back to the question - What proportion of a regular battalion on 1/7/16 would have been 1914 star men? Or, put another way - How many of the 19,000 killed on the day? Educated guesses requested!

Phil B

[HarryBettsMCDCM]

Likewise, David, I just have one tucked away (2 Duke of Wellingtons), and I don`t recall refusing any over the years, so my estimate looks high.

Yes, HB, the regulars would have learned to keep their heads down by then and have a lower casualty rate than the "young and inexperienced". Which brings us back to the question - What proportion of a regular battalion on 1/7/16 would have been 1914 star men? Or, put another way - How many of the 19,000 killed on the day?  Educated guesses requested!

                                                            Phil B

I would hazard a guess of around 10~15% being 1914 Men,Casualties that Day,going on the above information{The information would be reasonably easy to equate by doing a "Number" check in "Soldiers Who Died On the First Day of The Somme",Using Service Numbers in the Regular Battalions below 10000,not Rocket science but a reasonably accurate way of assessing a Mans enlistment]

[Paul Reed]

I must confess I have seen a few over the years, and have a 2nd Middlesex Regt casualty who was an Old Contemptible who died that day. Indeed, I suspect that in 8th Division (of which they were a part) there were probably quite a number. I have a friend who has a 1914 Trio to a Gordon buried in the Gordon Cemetery who died on 1st July - and a quick check of their casualties that day shows a couple of others with similar numbers.

[PhilB]

I only got about 8% using a figure of 50% regulars being 14 men. Do you mean 10 - 15% in the regular battalions? That would put the total for 1/7/16 at about 1.7% - 2.6% or 323 - 494 out of the 19,000 killed. That would explain why David and I don`t have a drawer full! Phil B

[HarryBettsMCDCM]

I only got about 8% using a figure of 50% regulars being 14 men. Do you mean 10 - 15% in the regular battalions? That would put the total for 1/7/16 at about 1.7% - 2.6% or 323 - 494 out of the 19,000 killed. That would explain why David and I don`t have a drawer full! Phil B

That would do it,if you remember the terrific Casualties to the BEF @ Le Cateau,Ypres,Loos,Etc,I would be surprised if in 1916 there were more than 15% of Original 1914 Regulars serving with their Units,who would have gone over the Top on 1st July 1916,Also some would have been in units not up the line that day [or who didnt receive many Casualties];who went on to be Killed in later Battles[ie 6th {S}The Northamptonshire Regiment only lost around 36 Men on 1st,but went on to lose many more on 14th @ Trones Wood,,Etc;including Company Sergeant Major;Samuel Rowland MM,who had served with the 2nd Battalion in 1914 & Corporal Martin Stapleton MM,who had also served with the 2nd Bn in 1914,before being posted to the 6th,who was killed on February 17th 1917.

[PhilB]

An extension of what you say, HB, is that 14 trio casualties will get rarer as the war progresses. When you think of it, how many 14 trios do you see to men killed in 1918? I certainly don`t have a drawer full! Phil B

[dycer]

Please remember that members of the TF are also entitled to the 1914 Star.The London Scottish are an obvious example.

I have two trios to members of the 8th Royal Scots who landed in France in November 1914.The first being killled in January 1915 and the second in March 1918.

As the 8th Royal Scots became a Pioneer Battalion I supose the longetivity of my second group could be explained but then again they were Pioneers to the 51st Highland Division!

George

p.s. the trios belong to my Uncles.

[PhilB]

I did include them in my rough calculations! Phil B

[dycer]

Cheers Phil,

I'm happy to know the "Saturday Nighters" are not forgotten but as you can appreciate I'm biased!

George

[PhilB]

Get that calculator out George and see if you come to the same kind of figure that I arrived at. I`d appreciate a second opinion! Phil B

[dycer]

Phil,

Statistically I would not dispute your figures.

I suppose the problem is the mindset of Company Commanders,etc at the time.

Clearly he would want experienced men in the attack to give support,guidance,etc to inexperienced colleagues.Equally though, he would probably retain experienced men in the Cadre that was left behind to ensure his Company had some strength in depth if it had to be rebuilt in the liklehood of heavy losses, as happened.

My second Uncle is a case in point.He went to War as a Corporal and was a Sergeant by the Somme.I know the 51st were not involved in the 1st day.A contemporary photograph taken at the time of the Battle whilst on local leave(unfortunately I have no scanner) gives the impression that collegues looked to him for support.It shows a group with my Uncle in front of a frayed carpet with a colleague resting his arm on my Uncle's shoulder.Tim Godden(member) has a copy of the photograph and will hopefully post it soon.I will try and post it this weekend.My Uncle lost his life during the German advance in March 1918.Clearly his experience counted for nothing but I don't suppose a shell or bullet discriminates between experience and inexperience.He has no grave and is commemorated on the Arras Memorial.

George

[SPotter]

Gents,

Some time ago I transcribed the 1914 Star Roll for the 1st Bn Dorsetshire Regt onto an excel spreadsheet, so can give the following facts.

The Dorsets were part of the original BEF, arriving in France (Le Havre) with the 15th Brigade, 5th Division on 16th August 1914 and remained in France throughout the war. They were part of 14th Brigade, 32nd Division on 1st July 1916 and were opposite Thiepval.

1) A total of 1991 stars were issued.

2) 1075 were awarded to the men who landed in France on 16.8.14 [6 men had crossed earlier, presumably as details or batmen to Billeting Officers etc., making a total of 1081 men.]

3) Therefore 910 men crossed to France as re-inforcements in enough time to earn the 1914 star (i.e. before 23rd November 1914), which is 84% of the original force [or put another way, approximately 84% of the original force were casualties by 23.11.14.]

4) 16 men who were awarded the 1914 star were KIA on 01.7.16 [0.8%]

5) 7 men who were part of the original contingent were KIA on 01.7.16 [0.65%]

6) SDGW shows 63 men KIA on 01.7.16, so 1914 star men made up 25% of the casualties. This last must have been particularly hard to bear and included a DCM+MM winner, 2 DCM winners and 2 MM winners.

7) The last man to be KIA of the original contingent was 7407 Pte A.T. Webster, who was KIA on 03.10.18. The last 1914 star holder was KIA on 02.11.18.

I have many projects lined up for statistical analysis of all the Dorset medal rolls, but my main one, which I am yet to start, is to establish exactly what happened to every single soldier who went overseas on 16.8.14 to try and work out how the composition of the Bn changed over the course of time.

Regards

Steve

[PhilB]

Thanks, Steve. Nice to have some hard facts, rather than my "educated guesses"!

The 25% figure (% of 1/7/16 casualties with 14 stars) falls between HB`s estimate and my 50 %. No reason to believe other battalions would be greatly different. Phil B

[HarryBettsMCDCM]

Good to get a reasonably accurate figure,Have you any numbers of 1914 Star Men of 1st Dorsetshire Regiment who would have transferred out of the Battalion before 1/7/1916,which could affect the % of Overall Dorsetshire 14 Star Recipients KiA/DoW that day,as they would I presume appear on other units Rolls,not on their original Regiments?? {just playing Devils Advocate!}

[ianw]

As has been said , officers may have been tempted to leave experienced soldiers "back with the transport" especially if they suspected they were going to "cop it". On the other hand, this self-same experience would be valuable under fire. Also a good % of the regulars would not have been in the first flush of youth and may have been deemed unsuited to the physical rigours of the day.

I suppose on balance they probably could not count on very favourable treatment from the Army which leaves us with the question of actual numbers who were there. In addition to those previously killed, quite a number would still be recovering from wounds received in 1915 and others would have been sent to UK bases to train.

I recall a story of French touring battalions in France in 1915 and being delighted when he came across 1914 regulars. They were rare then and , of course, he felt comfortable with them.

I would agree that only several hundred may have been killed on 1.07.16 and this does indeed make this a rare medal group - not only because of the numbers per se , but more importantly because of the story of service and ultimate sacrifice that the medals mutely tell.

[SPotter]

HB,

Of the 1991 1914 star men, 298 transferred to other Regts or Corps. Although the roll does give the man's new unit and regt. no. unfortunately it does not indicate when, or if they became non-effective. I will have to check the MICs for each one (easier now they are online), to see what became of them. Definitely a rainy week project. Of those 298, 140 were original 16.8.14 men. Therefore 15% of the total transferred and 13% of the originals.

Regards

Steve

[HarryBettsMCDCM]

Cheers Steve,