Lee Enfield

[Khaki]

I have seen German photograph's of G98's stored in 'ready use' wooden rack's set into the parapet side of the trench wall, the rack appeared to be within a box frame.Was there a similar system in British trenches. If not on 'guard duty' how did soldiers store their rifles?

khaki

[calibre792x57.y]

I have seen German photograph's of G98's stored in 'ready use' wooden rack's set into the parapet side of the trench wall, the rack appeared to be within a box frame.Was there a similar system in British trenches. If not on 'guard duty' how did soldiers store their rifles?

khaki

There plenty of photos showing trenches in 1915/16 with rifles propped against the parapet, frequently with bayonets fixed. Good soldiers keep their rifles to hand at all, and I mean all, times. - SW

[TonyE]

I agree entirely with Sommewalker. Often there are pictures of soldiers asleep on firesteps or elsewhere with their rifles propped beside them. I have never seen a rifle rack in a British trench.

Regards

TonyE

[truthergw]

This is pure speculation on my part. I wonder if the racks were used where men slept or sheltered in deep dugouts. Would it have been easier/safer to dash up a long staircase without a loaded rifle?

[Matthew]

I've seen pictures where the Germans hung their rifles on pegs on the walls of dug outs; muzzle down to presumably keep them free of falling dirt. Rifles were hung on their slings so easily ready for use.

[Khaki]

i agree I have also seen photo's of British SMLE'S leaning against the parapet wall with bayonet 'fixed', however whether this is part of a 'guard detail' I don't know, there must have been times when on a trench work detail, ie filling sandbags, repairing the trench wall, digging latrines when a rifle was a hindrance, I am sure they were near at hand, but in torrential rain, mud etc., leaning against the wall does not seem to be the answer.

thanks

khaki

[dickiek]

I agree entirely with Sommewalker. Often there are pictures of soldiers asleep on firesteps or elsewhere with their rifles propped beside them. I have never seen a rifle rack in a British trench.

Regards

TonyE

Ok, look at it logically, if you put your rifle in a rack,you will need to know which slot it's in, or remember the slot No. allocated tothat rifle....can you imagine a section of troops putting their rifles in a rack, then at the start of a 'Stand To' shout, one big pile of khaki fighting each other to get to their rifle, then stand there arguing that 'so and so' has picked up his rifle as this one's 'not mine'...... I don't think it's a case of just grab any rifle in an action, as they should be zeroed in to the individual soldier, plus the length of stock could be an issue.....they will always be right within arms reach..

[Khaki]

Interesting replies, just to be awkward, where was the record of which rifle was issued to which soldier, I don't recall seeing a pay book or anything else with such data, although I concede that there must have been a record somewhere.

khaki

[Stoppage Drill]

In my time on Ops or exercise you went to sleep with your rifle clasped in your arms, or inside your Green Maggot with you.

I imagine it was the same in WW1.

[dickiek]

In my time on Ops or exercise you went to sleep with your rifle clasped in your arms, or inside your Green Maggot with you.

I imagine it was the same in WW1.

Aha, yes...many a sleepless night cuddling up with your rifle.....

Also, had to quote my SLR's No. to get it out of the armoury, plus having the serial No. jotted down in my note book, still got it somewhere....

[Khaki]

I don't wish to drag this out but I have seen many film images of tommie's on work details in the trenches, shoveling out mud, doing repairs, carrying supplies (screw pickets etc) and no rifle in sight.

khaki

[4thGordons]

I don't wish to drag this out but I have seen many film images of tommie's on work details in the trenches, shoveling out mud, doing repairs, carrying supplies (screw pickets etc) and no rifle in sight.

khaki

I would sugggest that the very fact that it was possible to film these (ie it was broad daylight etc) might indicate that vast majority of such footage would be quite some distance from the front line / direct threat from the enemy.

Pre WWI the answer to the initial question was of course "piling[or stacking] rifles" for which purpose British rifles prior to the SMLE MkIII* had a piling swivel. The fact that this feature was discontinued as unneeded at around the start of 1916 suggests that piling was no longer practiced (obviously the practice is far more suited to open encampments than to narrow trenches!). In tented encampments I have seen pictures of a sort of webbing strap that could be affixed to the centre pole in a tent to allow rifles to be piled around the pole.

When manning the front lines I suspect each man would have his own weapon close to hand at all times.

Chris

Regarding the mud issue - action and muzzle covers of various designs both formal and informal became common as a means of minimizing this. This too was recognized with the evolution of the SMLE MkIII to MkIII* when the extra sling swivel mount forward of the magazine (in itself largely a throwback to long rifles like the Martini-henry slung from forward of the trigger to the muzzle) was replaced by a wire loop to allow the attachment of an action cover loop.

Edited 29 March , 2012 by 4thGordons

[4thGordons]

Browsing other topics - the 1915 photos provided by Centurion HERE IN THIS CURRENT THREAD show rifles leaning up in trenches in several pictures and also (in the behind the lines RE shot) piled rifles!

Chris

[Thunderbox]

Interesting replies, just to be awkward, where was the record of which rifle was issued to which soldier, I don't recall seeing a pay book or anything else with such data, although I concede that there must have been a record somewhere.

khaki

Although it would have been normal peacetime practice to have a unit weapons register linking weapons to soldiers, I have feeling that record-keeping was largely abandoned in both world wars. i'm sure that Platoon Sergeants in some units probably kept a weapons list in their troop records, but they were probably pushed just keeping up with the turnover in soldiers, let alone weapons. IIRC no-one in the Enfield collecting community has ever heard of a surviving document listing rifle issues.

Many contemporary accounts refer to individuals either losing their rifles and just picking up another, or even switching their rifles over deliberately (vide the accounts of troops armed with Long Lees or Ross' re-arming themselves with "short" rifles....).

On the subject of storage of weapons, i think every single trench photo I've seen (hundreds) shows rifles simply rested against the parapet - and none in racks of any sort. Dug-outs are a different matter, many accounts refer to rifles hanging by their slings off pegs in the stair wells - a logical way of having them to hand but without causing an obstruction.

I wonder if these guys are going to bother checking serial numbers against casualty lists?:

[gerd.deboeck]

I wonder if these guys are going to bother checking serial numbers against casualty lists?:

Interesting (and moving) picture, is there any more info on it?

gerd

[Thunderbox]

Interesting (and moving) picture, is there any more info on it?

gerd

I think its a very moving and poignant photo - each rifle discarded by a wounded or killed soldier....

I've never come across a published version of the photo with any information attached, so I don't know where/when the battle took place. I've seen another photo which is even worse - in the foreground the same number of salvaged rifles, but in the background a huge mountain of discarded webbing equipment. Looked like salvage from thousands of casualties in one go.

[gerd.deboeck]

I think its a very moving and poignant photo - each rifle discarded by a wounded or killed soldier....

I've never come across a published version of the photo with any information attached, so I don't know where/when the battle took place. I've seen another photo which is even worse - in the foreground the same number of salvaged rifles, but in the background a huge mountain of discarded webbing equipment. Looked like salvage from thousands of casualties in one go.

Looking at the utility uniform, cor blimey, amount of salvage (there are even more in the background): If I had to guess: Kitcheners Army, 1916, Somme? The story behind the picture would be interesting, but I think we will never know.

Thanks for sharing, I'll keep a copy in my personal archive if you don't mind.

Gerd

[4thGordons]

So.... look what I found.

8th Infantry Brigade Diary Jan/Feb 1915 appendicese.

So apparently the idea of rifle racks was considered if not actually widely implemented (the top of the page has a basic design for what were to be come known as duckboards to be produced from salvaged material which was also to be the source of this rack)

It remains true that I have never seen a photo of such a rack.

Chris

[depaor01]

Looking at the utility uniform, cor blimey, amount of salvage (there are even more in the background): If I had to guess: Kitcheners Army, 1916, Somme? The story behind the picture would be interesting, but I think we will never know.

Thanks for sharing, I'll keep a copy in my personal archive if you don't mind.

Gerd

The Imperial War Museum has the photo in its collection and it's catalogued as "Salvaged rifles at Aveluy, September, 1916"

See HERE

Dave

[Khaki]

Well done Chris, even if it was not implemented it certainly shows that it was considered.

khaki

[Khaki]

Regarding the photograph in post #14 (lee enfields being stacked), my guesstimate based on rifles per square inch is that there are about 450/500 enfields not including the background, when one considers the Somme losses and this represents only a small proportion, it makes one think.

khaki

[gerd.deboeck]

Thanks Dave for confirmation. All the reading and studying is (finally) paying off. I hadn't seen this IWM collection.

Gerd

The Imperial War Museum has the photo in its collection and it's catalogued as "Salvaged rifles at Aveluy, September, 1916"

See HERE

Dave

[Andrew Upton]

Probably more widely implemented than previously suggested - just found the following in my copy of "An Officer's Manual of the Western Front 1914-1918", 2008, pages 67-69, whilst looking for something else:

Chapter 5 - Trench Standing Orders, 1915-16, 124th Infantry Brigade.

1. Reliefs.

STANDING ORDERS FOR THE TRENCHES

...

(k) The following constitute trench stores and will be handed over on relief:-

S.A.A.

Shovels.

Picks.

...

Rifle racks.

...

VERMOREL sprayers.

Pumps.

Reserve rations.

[4thGordons]

Probably more widely implemented than previously suggested - just found the following in my copy of "An Officer's Manual of the Western Front 1914-1918", 2008, pages 67-69, whilst looking for something else:

Chapter 5 - Trench Standing Orders, 1915-16, 124th Infantry Brigade.

1. Reliefs.

STANDING ORDERS FOR THE TRENCHES

...

(k) The following constitute trench stores and will be handed over on relief:-

S.A.A.

Shovels.

Picks.

...

Rifle racks.

...

VERMOREL sprayers.

Pumps.

Reserve rations.

Which makes the [apparent] absence of a photographic record of the beasts more intriguing.

So we now have two documentary references to rifle racks in the context of British trenches which suggest they were relatively common so can the forum produce a photograph of Enfields in a rack in a British trench?

I for one would really like to see one!

Chris

[IRC Kevin]

In my time on Ops or exercise you went to sleep with your rifle clasped in your arms, or inside your Green Maggot with you.

I imagine it was the same in WW1.

Saves embarassing moments at a court of enqiuiry like this one-

"On the 27th December 1916 whilst in the trenches I was detailed for pumping duties and placed rifle no.19 together with the rifle belonging to 3461 Pte Glover J in the trench end of the sap. On returning to get the rifle at 3PM on completion of the pumping duty, it was missing and I have not seen it since." .... "The Court having considered the evidence, are of the opinion that L/Cpl Donavan exercised all reasonable care with his rifle, No 19 and was not to blame for its loss, and that the rifle was taken by some person or persons unknown."