Major C H Regnart - from high flying Intelligence Officer to exile on

[michaeldr]

That signature is awfully hard to make out

The closest I can get to it using The Naval Who's Who of 1917 is

Com. (rtd) W H Boys

Naval Cadet 1879

Midshipman 1882

Commanded Sirius in the bombardment of the German Army's right wing on the Belgian coast on 18 October 1914 and subsequently (LG 15 Sept 1916)

Sounds a bit unlikely to be honest, but perhaps . . . .

regards

Michael

[corisande]

Michael

Thanks, certainly that is a definite possibility (from the writing that is).

I will have a go with him and see if I can track down what he was doing, or might have been doing, writing a report on Regnart

[centurion]

Any have sight of this? http://www-archives.chu.cam.ac.uk/perl/node?a=a;reference=CHAR%2013%2F40%2F4 It might show how important (or otherwise) the Loch Ewe defences were regarded by the high command

[corisande]

Centurion

Thanks for the link. Doubt if I would get to Cambridge to see the telegram, but I had found

1914 Sep. , when Churchill was the First Lord of the Admiralty, he travelled through Ross-shire on his way to visit the fleet at Loch Ewe.

1914 Oct 7. Telegram from the Commander-in-Chief, Home Fleet [Admiral Sir John Jellicoe] to Admiralty, on reports that German submarines had been seen inside Loch Ewe [Ross and Cromarty, Scotland], and on resulting movements of coal supplies.

The movements of the fleet seem a bit obscure for obvious reasons, perhaps someone can tell me if they were at Loch Ewe at that time

[corisande]

And got Capt W H Boys record and he is the right man. Odd sort of entry squeezed in there

Not sure what it actually tells me

[EDIT]if anyone wants to read it Boys full record is here - click this link

and his obit was in the Times in 1927, the relevant bit is

[/EDIT]

[centurion]

As part of Jellico's worries over the safety of Scapa Flow (as I posted about), the Home Fleet did anchor for a time in Loch Ewe in 1914. My point was that for a time it looked as if Loch Ewe might replace Scapa Flow and would have seemed an important place indeed. So the mystery might not be so much why your man was posted there in the first place but why he stayed there (if indeed he did).

[centurion]

An additional possibility.

German telegraphic cables with North America were cut quickly once Britain entered the war (indeed Churchill jumped the gun and had one cut before war was declared). The Germans came to an illegal (under international law) agreement for the Swedish transatlantic link to carry their traffic. This cable crossed British soil in the north of Scotland (to avoid certain Atlantic seabed problems that would have occurred on a more northerly route). It was illegal (under international law) for Britain to tap this cable (and it was believed in general technically impossible without leaving metaphorical hobnailed boot prints all over the place). Nevertheless it was tapped undetected by the Admiralty and the German illegal traffic detected. No mention of this was made and a section of Admiralty Room 40 (more a department analogous to WW2 Bletchley Park) run by the Reverend William Montgomery and Nigel de Grey began cracking the German codes. It was this that allowed Britain to pass the content of the Zimmerman cable to the US government and as a direct consequence President Woodrow Wilson told Congress in April 1917 that America's neutrality would cease.

I have been unable to discover the exact route of the cable across Scotland but a section of marines ostensibly concerned with hush hush sea bed cables (magnetic detection loops) and various matters to do with cables in and out of the water (submarine nets) would seem an ideal cover to tap international cables.

[grantowi]

Thers a thread here - http://archiver.root...2-08/1029756277 - about "Dummy Battleships" being run out of Loch Ewe between 1914 and 1915.

Could it have been part of naval inteligence.

Grant

[corisande]

Thanks guys,

I have added the bits about the dummy battleships and the cables to his story.

Probably more in Regnart's expertise revolves around the German communication cables.Regnart was a linguist with a wide range of languages "German, Russian, French, German, Spanish, Danish". And his languages are mentioned in his reports at the end of the war, with the implication being that he had used them during the war.

If he did in fact spend the whole war in Loch Ewe (and it was not a case of pretending to be there) then translating cable intercepts on the spot would seem to be the sort of thing he was qualified for.

Can anyone add any more about the cable. Given the sensitivity of cable intercepts and what they were used for, then I appreciate that little will have been written. There may have been a book written that I am unaware of perhaps?

(with my researches, my wife does worry about the lads knocking on our door!)

[michaeldr]

From your web-site:

Cumming’s carefully prepared scheme was upset in November 1910 by the trial for espionage in Germany of two British officers, Lieutenant Vivian Brandon and Captain Bernard Trench, who had been caught red-handed in August with maps, notes and photographs of defence and naval installations on the German North Sea coast and along the Kiel Canal. The two men had been working primarily for Regnart (though Cumming had agreed to provide £10 for any ‘extra expenses’), and there were fears that his involvement might become known to the Germans. In the end the appointment was not made and Regnart remained in the Admiralty.........

I had forgotten about Regnart's involvement with Trench and Brandon and have this morning gone back to have a look at the RM Historical Society's booklet 'Royal Marine Spies of World War One Era' and in particular, the first half which tells the story of Trench. The July 1993 article is by Donald F. Bittner PhD, Lt-Col. USMCR (rtd), Professor of History, Command & Staff College, Marine Corps University, Quantico.

Trench and Brandon had some previous experience of espionage work. In 1908 they reported on Kiel and Trench's record shows that he 'Received expressions of their Lordships appreciation of the useful report on Coastal Defences at Kiel rendered by him.'

So it was probably no surprise that in May 1910 Trench was approached by Regnart for another mission, this time to the Frisian Islands. Trench accepted and as before, took Brandon along in August that year. Experienced or not, the pair were discovered by a very basic mistake, when inside the wire of a German base a sentry spotted the flash from their camera. They were arrested, tried, convicted and sentenced to four years prison; Trench at the fortress of Glatz and Brandon at the fortress of Konigstein.

The German and British press were full of the story in late 1910 (indeed the German papers never really let go of it) and the drama reached the very highest levels three years later when the pair were released by the Kaiser so as not to embarrass his British relatives due in Germany for a family wedding.

When he returned to London, Trench reported to Colonel Mercer who took him to see the First Sea Lord, Prince Louis of Battenberg. The latter asked Trench if he had received all his pay and then remarked significantly

“But this must teach us that we mustn't send officers abroad on these sorts of jobs. But it wasn't your fault, it was the fault of the people who sent you.”

As happens when an operation like this goes pear-shaped, no one wanted to claim responsibility and others were looking for someone else to blame. Trench became convinced that

“Captain Jackson was our enemy, and that he was doing all he could to lay responsibility for the expedition on our shoulders.”

Trench and Brandon were eventually told that the affair would not affect their careers, one way or the other, but I wonder if Regnart (who by the way was known to the pair as 'Reggie') did not carry the can for this failed mission and become conveniently forgotten by the Admiralty while stationed far away in the north-west of Scotland

[corisande]

Trench and Brandon were eventually told that the affair would not affect their careers, one way or the other, but I wonder if Regnart (who by the way was known to the pair as 'Reggie') did not carry the can for this failed mission and become conveniently forgotten by the Admiralty while stationed far away in the north-west of Scotland

It is a good point. I did consider that before, but concluded that Regnart then went through the whole thing of resigning from the RMLI in order to distance himself from HMG, and Cummings then took him as "station chief" in Belgium/Holland/North Germany. It does not look up to late 1914 that he was a man not wanted.

Given his undoubted linguistic abilities, I doubt that the government could have afforded to send him to a remote location just to get rid of him - but that is just speculation.

What I thought was the better approach was to avoid speculation and try and see if there was anything at Loch Ewe that might have occupied his talents. The cable is certainly a possibility.

[michaeldr]

Trench and Brandon were eventually told that the affair would not affect their careers, one way or the other, but I wonder if Regnart (who by the way was known to the pair as 'Reggie') did not carry the can for this failed mission and become conveniently forgotten by the Admiralty while stationed far away in the north-west of Scotland

One further point if I may

I used the expression 'failed mission' above and indeed for the whole of the war it seems to have been officially seen as such.

Trench however continued to press for recognition of his sacrifice, writing to the Secretary of the Admiralty on 18 December 1918

"It is considered that the information obtained during this expedition and the experience and knowledge of Germany gained during the two years and nine months spent in captivity in Germany have been of material use during this war.”

A year later, 19 December 1919, Trench eventually got the official recognition which he wanted [from the Director of Naval Intelligence]

“The tour in Germany undertaken by Acting Captain (then Lieutenant) Vivian Ronald Brandon, RN and Temporary Lieutenant Colonel (then Captain) Bernard Trench, RMLI, in August 1910 produced results which have been of great value to NID throughout the war; and it is recognised that this tour was made entirely in the interests of the Navy and the Empire”

Was this too late to help Regnart

[corisande]

Michael

We are in the area of speculation. Regnart was still in Cummings "good books" in 1914. I accept that he may have fallen foul of internal politics, but I think I can only make progress with this thread if we can concentrate on the facts of what was happening in Loch Ewe. The battleship dummies seem to have come and gone early in the war.

The cable intercept is the most likely reason for him to be there (even if he were exiled). I would like to see if we can establish something on this cable and whether it was intercepted at Loch Ewe

[michaeldr]

What I thought was the better approach was to avoid speculation and try and see if there was anything at Loch Ewe that might have occupied his talents. The cable is certainly a possibility.

This is fair enough. There is no firm evidence to suggest that Regnart was made the scapegoat, but it remains a possibility

[corisande]

Another "odd" entry in his service record is that 1921 Apr 8. Recalled to army due to the Coal Strike. Indeed on 31 March 1921 a state of emergency was declared after another coal miners' strike was called. The emergency lasted till 28 Jun 1921.

Can anyone illuminate me on what looks like "F O Packet Favourable" to which he seems to have been posted

[horatio2]

An interesting topic. However, the amount of supposition and conspiracy theory therein I find less than persuasive.

Regnart did indeed conduct some important SIS work in the first half of 1914 (documented by Jeffery). However, it was so important that, when the RMLI wanted to mobilise him for their military tasks in July 1914, the SIS apparently made no attempt to hang on to this priceless intelligence asset, which they surely could have done if they really wanted to keep him in post. Could this have been because, as Jeffery makes clear ["Roy Regnart, troublesome as ever"], Regnart was really quite an awkward SIS employee? (Shades of his later mental illness and suicide, possibly.) Instead, they chose to let him go and, like all mobilised officers of the Reserve, he was put to work in the Fleet.

His recorded employment during the war seems entirely appropriate for a recalled junior RMLI officer with limited Fleet experience. I think his appointment to Loch Ewe as OC of an RM detachment running a defensive battery and Inspection Station for an important Fleet anchorage and base for the ships of the Auxiliary Patrol was, most likely, just as described. I can see no evidence for linking him to cable-tapping (if the cable indeed went through Loch Ewe) and to the various 'spook' activities raised as possibilities (or possible red herrings?) in previous posts. So he was a linguist - so were many other officers.

"...with the implication being that he had used them during the war."

I see no evidence for this remark. It was (and still is) standard procedure to record an officer's liguistic ability, whatever his employment.

I can also see nothing exceptional in his 1921 recall (along with many others) for two months coal strike mobilisation. I do not think he was appointed to a ship called "Favourable". Rather I think this is a comment on his conduct during this period which was recorded in "FOs packet". FO may refer to a Flag Officer commanding RMLI unit(s) during the strike.

That is my take on the evidence so far presented.

Edited 16 March , 2012 by horatio2

[horatio2]

The only Swedish submarine cable terminating in UK that I am aware of was the double 500nm cable laid in the late 19th Century between Marstad, Sweden, and Newbiggin-by-the-Sea in Northumberland. Traffic on this cable was then fed through to the Great Northern Telegraph Company in London and onward, via the Atlantic terminal at Porthcurno in Cornwall, to the transatlantic cables. This would have given Room 40 at the Admiralty numerous chances for interception without digging up a cable (across Scotland?). Is there evidence of the UK landfall and route of another Swedish cable? Would such a route even involve burying an expensive [submarine?] cable across Scotland when 'normal' telegraph would do the job far more economically? I am not aware of a transatlantic cable termination in northern Scotland (ie a Scottish Porthcurno at Loch Ewe).

[horatio2]

The matter of underwater submarine detector loops being trialled at Loch Ewe has some relevance, because the Royal Marines provided the Royal Marine Submarine Miners (RMSM). They were formed in 1915 to operate controlled defensive minefields at major ports and anchorages using hydrophone and, later, magnetic loop detection systems. The RMSM merged with the 5th RM Battalion in the same work just before the Armistice. Much experimental work on these systems was carried out at the RN Experimental Station, Felixstowe.

However, the records show no evidence that Regnart was involved with these developments (requiring officers and men with elecrical engineering expertise) nor that he was an officer in the RMSM (which, in any case, had nothing to do with submarine telegraph cables).

... a section of marines ostensibly concerned with hush hush sea bed cables (magnetic detection loops) and various matters to do with cables in and out of the water (submarine nets) would seem an ideal cover to tap international cables.

This quotation assumes (1) that the RM gunnery detachment was employed on "hush hush sea bed cables" - no evidence - and (2) that they were there to "tap international cables" - no evidence of such duties or even of the presence of a cable.

Edited 17 March , 2012 by horatio2

[corisande]

Great stuff there horatio2, just what I am looking for on cables.

I am trying to avoid speculation, or at least either substantiate or negate it. One thing researching Irish stuff has taught me is that threads get bogged down if there are not any facts that are verifiable.

So can anyone add to the cable information

And also I am still looking for ant information on "FO's Packet Favourable" in the clipping from his service record from 1921

[Ron617]

I appreciate that the last post on this thread was about 16 months ago. However, I would like to add one possibility (?) to explain the presence of Captain Regnart being stationed at Loch Ewe throughout World War I. In recent times I carried out some research into the U-boat war during WW I in the vicinity of the remote St Kilda island group off the Outer Hebrides. At the start of the war Aultbea was for a few months the naval HQ for Auxiliary Patrol Area 1, but the operational side was transferred to Stornoway early in 1915. I think the administrative side of things remained at Aultbea.

The Royal Marines who were landed at Aultbea after war broke out in August 1914 establish a small battery at the Rubh a' Choin peninsula (known as Fort Ru Con or Fort Rubh a' Choin). The spelling varies. A port War Signal Station was established beside the gun battery.

It was the procedure for all wireless intercepts from German U-boats to be sent to Aultbea. At first I thought this was to collate for intelligence purposes, but perhaps it was also for deciphering? Captain Regnart would have been ideally placed to assist with this, if indeed it was the case, bearing in mind his command of German.

This would have been no small task. Due to the English Channel being a very dangerous route for U-boats travelling to and from their areas of operation, off the west coast of the British Isles, the Atlantic and the Mediterranean, etc., most U-boats traveled all the way round the British Isles going to and from their areas of operation. They used places like St Kilda to fix their bearings.

I don't know much about the deciphering process, but I imagine that even from an intelligence gathering angle, Aultbea may have been a very important establishment for gathering intelligence on U-boat traffic and Regnart may have played a significant role? There may not have been a clandestine angle to his posting. merely he was a good man for the job?

[corisande]

The great thing about threads here is that they do get re-energised, sometimes after years. So 16 months is nothing :-0

I never realised that all intercepts were sent to Aultbea. I am out of my depth with the way submarine intercepts were dealt with. Were they just sent on in their original code to London (or wherever) , or did the local station like Aultbea decode and send on (presumably in a new British code) to London

Certainly if Regnart was dealing with an important signals base, it would make more sese that putting him out to grass in a remote location. Certainly with the other information on this thread, it looks like a much moe important location that when I first started on the thread

Any input on this would be appreciated.

[Ron617]

The great thing about threads here is that they do get re-energised, sometimes after years. So 16 months is nothing :-0

I never realised that all intercepts were sent to Aultbea. I am out of my depth with the way submarine intercepts were dealt with. Were they just sent on in their original code to London (or wherever) , or did the local station like Aultbea decode and send on (presumably in a new British code) to London

Certainly if Regnart was dealing with an important signals base, it would make more sese that putting him out to grass in a remote location. Certainly with the other information on this thread, it looks like a much moe important location that when I first started on the thread

Any input on this would be appreciated.

I am currently researching Loch Ewe for WW I but information is thin on the ground. I too am out of my depth with the interception and deciphering process. The Grand Fleet used Loch Ewe as their base for a short time after the War broke out and there were submarine scares at Scapa Flow, which caused Jellicoe to seek an alternative location pending the construction of a/s defences at Scapa. Another submarine scare in October 1914 caused the Grand Fleet to flee to Loch Swilly and Loch na Keal, before they returned to Scapa. However, Loch Ewe remained a coaling base for parts of the Grand Fleet. Churchill, as First Lord of the Admiralty, along with other Admirals held their Loch Ewe "war conference" aboard Jellicoe's flagship "Iron Duke" on 27th (?) Sept 1914.

Planned a/s defences were abandoned after the Grand Fleet left Loch Ewe, although the Ru Con battery remained along with a "dummy" boom across the loch mouth. The actual naval importance of Loch Ewe diminshed not long into the war, but clearly the place retained some kind of importance.

[scall38]

Hi all. I am very interested to find out which regiment or service that Major C.N. Regnard belonged to. Any help would be greatly received thanks. As his rank is given as manor he must have had war service. ?

[corisande]

The answer is all in the name - his name was Regnart, not Regnard

He was RMLI

What is your interest

[scall38]

Hi there thanks very much for replying. I live in Kilkenny close to Woodstock house where A Coy ADRIC were stationed and recently read that this officer took his own life there. I was wondering where he was from and where he was buried. Seeing as he has an Intel background maybe he was working in that capacity in the area. Only a couple of months earlier T/Cadet Ffrench was killed while under cover in the rower area . thanks again.