Please identify this soldier from my photo

[Steen Ammentorp]

Hi,

Regarding #24. I don't think that it is Major Erich Henry Bonham, who retired from the Army 10th Dec. 1919 (Though may have worn his uniform). However the photo shows a General Officer, notice the gorget patches and the bagde on the cap. Over his right breast we have at least two rows of ribbons.

[paddym]

I'd say you hit it first time! Googled him on Wikipedia and no doubt about it. Thanks Khaki...

I might have to scan the other eight faces and line you up an identiity parade!

Regards

Paddy

Diane, you have very sharp eyes! Thanks for the tip, very useful indeed.

Paddy

Got him! A contact elsewhere has identified this striking figure as Colonel Herbert Thomas (Tom) Goodland, in his capacity as Deputy Controller of the Imperial War Graves Commission. (comparison photo below).

See http://www.chilliwackmuseum.ca/War_Mem_ss2.html

Like the other men in the photo, he was a leading mason (I think the Duke was a Grand Master), and founded Lodge No 12 in early 1922 for the staff of the Commission: Rudyard Kipling was asked to name the lodge, and came up with "The Builders of the Silent Cities" with the British branch still in existence.

Now I know this, I can see that he is the central figure, with guests and colleagues arranged round him. So this may well be a post-prandial photo of No 12 with WAGs.

Paddy

[Stoppage Drill]

I think No 3 is Lt Col T R C Price CMG DSO, Commanding Officer 1/Welsh Guards from Dec 1920 to Aug 1924. Look at him as Major in this photo I posted in another thread recently, sitting next to the CO in 1916. Second in Command at that time I guess. Eventually became Regimental Lieutenant Colonel (A colonels rank) 1 October 1924 - 30 September 1928

https://p4iibq.bay.l...280).jpg?psid=1

He had been commissioned into Queens Own Royal West Kents in 1890s, obviously transferred to Welsh Guards on their formation in 1915.

[paddym]

After much discussion with those more expert than I, here is a revised listing of likely participants at this event, which may have been a lunch following an equestrian event. The majority of those present seem to have worked for the Imperial War Graves Commission, and may also have been members of a Freemasons Lodge associated with IWCG staff, known as The Builders of the Silent Cities. I intend contacting what is now the CWGC to ask if they any recored in their archives. Will report back! Meantime, thanks for all your help.

Identified group members in photo taken early July 1922

5 Donald Sterling Palmer Howard, 3rd Baron Strathcona and Mount Royal.

6 John Simon, 1st Viscount Simon, later to become Home Secretary, Foreign Secretary and Chancellor of the Exchequer: in 1922 he was MP for Spen Valley and deputy leader of the Liberal Party. Husband of No 25.

11 Sir James Allen, NZ High Commissioner. He was appointed an Officer of the Legion of Honour in February 1922 when he was High Commissioner in London.

12 Sir Frederic Kenyon, Director, British Museum

13 Sir Reginald Theodore Blomfield (architect of Menin Gate, Ypres)

14 US Chief Justice William Howard Taft, formerly US President. On three week fact-finding visit to Britain, 16th June-8th July 1922

15 Helen (“Nellie”) Taft, wife of No 14

19 Sir John James Burnett, architect of War memorials at Gallipoli, and Jerusalem

20 Sir Robert Stodard Lorimer, architect of the Scottish National War Memorial at Edinburgh Castle

21 Lt.-Col. Herbert Thomas "Tom" Goodland, Deputy Controller IWGC

22 Captain William Masters, R.A.S.C.

24 Major General Sir Fabian Arthur Goulstone Ware KCVO, KBE, CB, CMG, founder of the Imperial War Graves Commission, now the Commonwealth War Graves Commission

25 Kathleen, Viscountess Simon, Wife of No 6

26 Prince Arthur, Duke of Connaught and Strathearn, son of Queen Victoria. Note black armband: he is in mourning for the death of his close friend Field Marshal Sir Henry Hughes Wilson, shot by IRA gunmen in London, June 22nd 1922.

27 General Sir Horace Lockwood Smith-Dorrien, Governor of Gibraltar. He devoted much his time to the welfare and remembrance of Great War soldiers.

28 Carrie Kipling, wife of No 30

29 Elsie Kipling, daughter of Nos 30 and 28

30 Rudyard Kipling, author. Kipling's role was to advise the IWGC on inscriptions and other literary matters, and he was a founder member together with Tom Goodland (No 21) and others of The Builders of the Silent Cities, a Masonic lodge for IWGC staff.

31 Captain George Louis St Clair Bambridge, Diplomat, of Wimpole Hall, near Cambridge: will marry No 29 in 1924

[Stoppage Drill]

Re my earlier - I am convinced #3 is Colonel Price. Any observations from other contributors ?

Without knowing what the occasion was, it's hard to comment on any Masonic angle - especially as ladies are present - but the Craft was very well established in the upper echelons of society at the time, including the Army and the Navy.

[paddym]

Re my earlier - I am convinced #3 is Colonel Price. Any observations from other contributors ?

Without knowing what the occasion was, it's hard to comment on any Masonic angle - especially as ladies are present - but the Craft was very well established in the upper echelons of society at the time, including the Army and the Navy.

Certainly looks like him: similar visage and mien. Do you know if he was involved with the IWGC, was a Mason, was wealthy, or was involved with horses? Those seem to be the threads tying this group and their WAGs together, so far anyway.

Thanks for your contribution, which I didn't see until I had posted my latest listing, sorry!

Paddy

[Stoppage Drill]

Certainly looks like him: similar visage and mien. Do you know if he was involved with the IWGC, was a Mason, was wealthy, or was involved with horses? Those seem to be the threads tying this group and their WAGs together, so far anyway.

Thanks for your contribution, which I didn't see until I had posted my latest listing, sorry!

Paddy

Yes, and the cap badge is unmistakeable. Freemasonry was big in the Guards - bear in mind the "Gladeye" which was the divisional badge of the Guards Div WW1, of the Guards Armoured Div WW2 and of 4 (Guards) Armd Bde in Munster until - fairly recently. It's a classic masonic symbol, and is on US dollar bills. (All of the founding fathers were masons). In my time in a Guards Battalion, the man who ran it was a Colour Sergeant, Grand Master of the Regimental Lodge. Not the CO.

I'll see if I can find anything else about Price, but if you don't hear from me assume I have been buried up to my neck between low and high tides !

Goes without saying that he was wealthy - CO of a 1920's Guards Battalion - and wealth at the time went with horses.

[roselyn2]

2LT. C. H. Dudley Ward. D. S. O. M. C. wrote the book History Of The Welsh Guards. Lyn.

[paddym]

2LT. C. H. Dudley Ward. D. S. O. M. C. wrote the book History Of The Welsh Guards. Lyn.

Thanks: looks like this group photo also has some stars! -- Paddy

[paddym]

Research Results so far - thanks for all your help here!

This group photo was taken in England sometime between 22^nd June and 8^th July 1922.

How do we know that? One striking presence, wearing a straw boater, is a former US President, William Taft, who, in his capacity as the US Chief of Justice, visited the UK once only last century, on a legal fact-finding mission from 16^th June to the 8^th July 1922.

Why the 22^nd June start? Because another striking presence, Arthur, Duke of Connaught (son of Queen Victoria), fourth from left on front row, is wearing on his left arm a black mourning armband. His great friend and military colleague Sir Henry Wilson had been assassinated outside his London home on the 22^nd – the Duke accompanied his coffin on behalf of the King at the funeral in Westminster Abbey on 26^th June. So, we know when and who , but not why or where.

Immediately behind the Duke, with a round white collar, is Sir John Simon, a brilliant lawyer who had visited Taft in the US, and was almost certainly a key figure in the return visit. In fact Taft stayed with Sir John at his home at Fritwell Manor near Oxford, on the weekend of 1^st/2^nd July. Sir John went on to fill nearly every major post in government: Attorney General, Home Secretary, Foreign Secretary, Chancellor of the Exchequer and Lord Chancellor.

To the left of Sir John is Bonar Law, shortly to become British Prime Minister.

Further along the seated front row with arms folded is Rudyard Kipling, sitting between his daughter and her husband to be, Captain George Bambridge, a senior diplomat.

Standing in the middle of the photo, in the uniform of the 5^th Battalion Royal Berkshire Regt, is Colonel Herbert Thomas Goodland, C.B, D.S.0, Deputy Controller of the Imperial War Graves Commission in France. He served on the Bulgarian Front in Gallipoli and Salonika at the same time as the man to his right, Army Service Corps Captain William Masters, in whose album this photo was found. Seated in front of them is General Sir Horace Smith-Dorrien GCB, GCMG, DSO, ADC, who was in 1922 Governor of Gibraltar.

To the left of William Taft, in a dark suit, is Sir Reginald Blomfield, architect of many War Memorials, including the impressive Menin Gate at Ypres, which commemorates nearly 55,000 fallen, and carries, as do many war memorials, inscriptions composed by Kipling.

Seated front row, second from left, is Major General Sir Fabian Ware KCVO, KBE, CB, CMG, founder and Vice Chairman of the Imperial War Graves Commission.

So what event were this group of leading policitians, architects, soldiers, commissioners and Rudyard Kipling attending? They are in front of a pavilion of some kind, appear to have eaten (waitress in the background), some present are wearing round white passes, and one soldier is wearing a white armband on his right arm, often worn by competitors in equestrian events.

What connects them? All the males so far named are Freemasons, many of them high-ranking, eg the Duke of Connaught was a Grand Master. Many, including Ware, Goodland and Kipling, were founders of a Masonic Lodge called “The Builders of the Silent Cities” (a name coined by Kipling) to be associated with the War Graves Commission and its building works. This was founded in France and consecrated in January 1922. It is possible this was a meeting of Brethren interested in founding a branch in England, which was eventually consecrated in December 1927, and is still operative.

Here is an extract from a letter Kipling wrote to his daughter Elsie, from Batemans, Burwash, Sussex on 19^th July. 1922.at 8.40. p.m., describing his visit to London the day before:

“Then I to lunch at the Carlton where I met Uncle Stan [

Stanley

Baldwin, a cousin

] ...

“Then I to my graves commission, after having writ our names in the D. of C.’s book - a detail I had omitted since the lunch...

“When I got home to Brown’s at 5 o’clock or later there was Colonel Goodland just on his way back to France... He’s a nice simple man that I can’t help liking, and full of enquiries for you. Told us that part of his duties is to chase up Mormonistic gardeners who are living with French women and forgetting that they have a deserted wife on the rates in England. The d.w

.[Department for Work]

often finds out the husband’s address (if he hasn’t been prudent enough to change his name) and pursues him through the Poor Law Relief officers. Then there are scenes. “Well. all that’s very distressin’, ain’t it?” said Goodlands, with that queer twist of his eye. “I don’t think one ought to overlook that sort of thing - do you? Even if a man does his work well as a gardener he hasn’t any business to do that — has he?” We agreed: even gardeners should not grow two wives.”

The second sentence bristles with significance. D of C equals Duke of Connaught surely. But what is the book, and why would Kipling need to record his family’s names in it? And is the lunch the one consumed before the photo was taken? Since he doesn’t explain “the lunch” we can assume that Elsie would know to what he was referring by the D of C reference.

We understand from paragraph three, “…full of enquiries for you”, that Colonel Goodland has met Elsie, perhaps at the lunch? Gardeners are the IWGC staff who tend the graves, many were brought over from England in the early days.

We have contacted the Commonwealth War Graves Commission (formerly the IWGC), the Kipling Archive at the University of Sussex and the Builders of the Silent Cities Masonic Lodge, all have responded, but none have been able to track any reference to this event in their archives.

"I keep six honest serving-men

They taught me all I knew;

Their names are What and Why and When

And How and Where and Who."

Elephant's Child in "Just So Stories" - Rudyard Kipling

[Beau Geste]

I almost don't want to say this, as I am just not that confident, anyway here goes, I thought that officer #3 shows a similarity to General Birdwood. I cannot make out his cap badge which doesn't look like a General Officers.

khaki

Is number three a general? To me he looks too young to have attained that rank. I know a few did, but it was rather rare. His shoulder badges of rank suggest to me that he might be a lieutenant colonel and could his cap and cap badge be that of a member of the Brigade of Guards, perhaps the Welsh Guards ?

Harry

Sorry Stoppage Drill I was still looking at the postings on page 1 when I posted this. I only came across your more helpful

contribution later

[paddym]

Thanks Beau Geste, yes things have moved on since then! Current thinking is that this group of top brass, war graves staff, wealthy politicians, masons, architects, legal eagles and Kipling (who had a personal motive) were movers and shakers using funds and influence towards the building of a memorial to the Guards in London.

I've started a thread on this in the Memorials section.

Regards from Wales

Paddy

[JM Junior]

On 22/03/2012 at 18:28, paddym said:

Got him! A contact elsewhere has identified this striking figure as Colonel Herbert Thomas (Tom) Goodland, in his capacity as Deputy Controller of the Imperial War Graves Commission. (comparison photo below).

See http://www.chilliwackmuseum.ca/War_Mem_ss2.html

Like the other men in the photo, he was a leading mason (I think the Duke was a Grand Master), and founded Lodge No 12 in early 1922 for the staff of the Commission: Rudyard Kipling was asked to name the lodge, and came up with "The Builders of the Silent Cities" with the British branch still in existence.

Now I know this, I can see that he is the central figure, with guests and colleagues arranged round him. So this may well be a post-prandial photo of No 12 with WAGs.

Paddy

 

I hate to pour cold water on this old thread, but I had to chime in, as Col Herbert Tom Goodland (yes, "Tom" is his full middle name) is my grandfather.  His is the portrait on the right, but the figure on the left (#21 in the group photo) is definitely not the same person.

[paddym]

I'm surprised by that: I was basing my assumption on a number of photos of Tom taken around that time, and the face and uniform appeared to match (see attached image).

Since that was posted 11 years ago we have identified the event: 

On the morning of 3^rd July 1922, William Howard Taft, US Chief Justice (and former President) was a guest at the House of Lords, where he sat in Black Rod’s seat and observed legal discussions between judges, as part of his three-week legal fact-finding visit to Great Britain. Afterwards he attended a lunch hosted by the Duke of Connaught in the grounds of Clarence House, on behalf of King George, to thank those involved in the establishment and work of the Imperial War Graves Commission(IWGC). He wrote an informal account of his visit to the UK in a 108-page letter to his son, archived at the US Library of Congress [I have a copy]

Shortly after the event Kipling wrote in a letter to his daughter (both present in the photo):

“When I got home to Brown’s at 5 o’clock or later there was Colonel Goodland just on his way back to France...

which puts Tom in London at the time of the event. Ah well...

I will shortly post a full account of the event 

Kind regards

Paddy

[JM Junior]

23 minutes ago, paddym said:

I'm surprised by that: I was basing my assumption on a number of photos of Tom taken around that time, and the face and uniform appeared to match (see attached image).

Since that was posted 11 years ago we have identified the event: 

On the morning of 3^rd July 1922, William Howard Taft, US Chief Justice (and former President) was a guest at the House of Lords, where he sat in Black Rod’s seat and observed legal discussions between judges, as part of his three-week legal fact-finding visit to Great Britain. Afterwards he attended a lunch hosted by the Duke of Connaught in the grounds of Clarence House, on behalf of King George, to thank those involved in the establishment and work of the Imperial War Graves Commission(IWGC). He wrote an informal account of his visit to the UK in a 108-page letter to his son, archived at the US Library of Congress [I have a copy]

Shortly after the event Kipling wrote in a letter to his daughter (both present in the photo):

“When I got home to Brown’s at 5 o’clock or later there was Colonel Goodland just on his way back to France...

which puts Tom in London at the time of the event. Ah well...

I will shortly post a full account of the event 

Kind regards

Paddy

Yes, the three on the right are all Col Goodland, but the man on the far left does seem pretty clearly to me to be a different person.  Notably...ahem...paunchier, and unlike Col Goodland, his ears don't stick out :-)  Here is another picture of Col Goodland, from 1922 at (I believe) Tyne Cot cemetary.

[paddym]

Strangely enough, we had a family argument about whether Captain William Masters next to himr (my wife's grandfather, in whose possessions the photo was found) was he because his ears were sticking out too far! Is it a slight possibility that the image was changed (an early Photoshop?) to reduce the earage?:: there is a very convenient white dress behind!

I had thought that Fabian Ware (Tom's boss) was present, but in fact it was the Earl of Cavan. Chief of the Imperial General Staff. So (ducks and runs) a representative of IWGC top staff would have been missing,.

Are there any of Tom's diaries kicking around?

Nice image of his satchel below...

Paddy

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, JM Junior said:

Yes, the three on the right are all Col Goodland, but the man on the far left does seem pretty clearly to me to be a different person.  Notably...ahem...paunchier, and unlike Col Goodland, his ears don't stick out :-)  Here is another picture of Col Goodland, from 1922 at (I believe) Tyne Cot cemetary.

For what it’s worth I agree that the man far left in your montage is a different individual. 

Edited 24 August , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[JM Junior]

On 24/08/2023 at 13:34, paddym said:

Strangely enough, we had a family argument about whether Captain William Masters next to himr (my wife's grandfather, in whose possessions the photo was found) was he because his ears were sticking out too far! Is it a slight possibility that the image was changed (an early Photoshop?) to reduce the earage?:: there is a very convenient white dress behind!

I had thought that Fabian Ware (Tom's boss) was present, but in fact it was the Earl of Cavan. Chief of the Imperial General Staff. So (ducks and runs) a representative of IWGC top staff would have been missing,.

Are there any of Tom's diaries kicking around?

Nice image of his satchel below...

Paddy

Nice satchel indeed!  According to my parents, most of Col Goodland's memorabilia from WWI were donated to the Museum of the Royal Berkshire Regiment in Salisbury, and other memorabilia, including scrapbooks, and photos (including the one above, with the King)  to the archives of the Commonwealth War Graves Commission in Reading.  The satchel was left out of this for some reason, and ended up at Lunds Auction House in Victoria BC, where Col Goodland (more familiarly known as Bert..."Tom" was just his rather unusual middle name) settled after his time at the CWGC.  I have his officer's sword, which is quite a family treasure.  It features the royal cyphers of both Edward VII and George V; clearly around 1910 they must have had some old inventory to clear out :-D  

[paddym]

Thanks, yes you must be very proud indeed of his sword!  Will attach to this reply the start of his scrapbook, which no doubt you have seen but others might enjoy looking at, from the CWGC archives online. -- Paddy