trajan Posted 25 February , 2012 Share Posted 25 February , 2012 Ok so here we go. Two bayonets on offer on Turkish e-bay right now and I have limited funds. So one or the other... One is a (captured) Russian Nagant (with the proper z-shaped dog-leg socket) with a scabbard, the other is an unshortened Turkish 1903 no scabbard. So, friends in the pointy things area of interest, what do you reckon having to make a choice between the two? I am inclined towards the first, the Nagant with scabbard, on grounds of greater rarity, but would welcome advice! No, I cannot give an assesment on comparative condition... Of course, I could just about buy both, but that would max out the credit card and possibly get me skewered when the Nagant arrives! Trajan EDIT: I should add that rarity is not the prime mover here - more a matter of getting first, a representative collection of WWI bayonets () and then a representative collection of Turkish bayonets...() Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 25 February , 2012 Share Posted 25 February , 2012 Well it really comes down to personal preference and I must emphasise that condition IS everything ... (yes I have just had a look at some of the photos) Apart from an ersatz M91 scabbard I would have thought that with all things being equal, that an M1903 would have been the more desirable article in hand. It is heavily dependent on relative condition but normally the M1903 would be far more valuable than a standard Mosin-Nagant 'pig-sticker' - but I am biased.! If its a reference your after I would point you to Carters price guide for 1996 which states M1903 - R5 scarce in good condition, M91 - R2/3 still quite common. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 26 February , 2012 Author Share Posted 26 February , 2012 ... Apart from an ersatz M91 scabbard I would have thought that with all things being equal, that an M1903 would have been the more desirable article in hand.... Thanks S>S, Whichever I went for I knew I would regret not going for the other one - but finances only really allow one bayonet a month at these 'outlandish' Turkish prices . Fact is that good bayonets on the Turkish e-bay can be a little bit like the proverbial no. 7 bus in London.... You wait for ages with nothing in sight and then two or more turn up at exactly the same time - as was the case here... Anyway, I went for the Moisin Nagant in the end because it DOES have an ersatz scabbard with it. Logically, I reckon that at some point in the future I am more likely to see another Turkish 1903 in Turkey than I am to see a Nagant with an erstaz scabbard... Just keeping my fingers crossed now that the 1903 doesn't get snapped up before the pay cheque comes in and the magic card bills are cleared...!!! Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 26 February , 2012 Share Posted 26 February , 2012 What type of scabbard is it, I guess metal tube - do you think it was Turkish made for a captured bayonet.? I didn't actually see any scabbard when I looked. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 26 February , 2012 Author Share Posted 26 February , 2012 ööö I didn't actually see any scabbard when I looked. Ahhhh, I guess you looked at the web page after I called in to reserve the one that I wanted, so leaving only one advertised as on sale - by the way, like the one that's still there, the one I have bought was also described as 'French'... The scabbard of mine is metal, and although the photo's were not good, it has an 'Austro-Hungarian'/'Imperial German' type elbow frog-stud. Should be here Wednesday, and hopefully I can smuggle it past my wife without her knowing exactly why the credit card maxed out this month! (BTW, you having seen the Turkish e-pay web-site, I guess you can see my other problem (apart from prices): there is no bidding process, and so one basically has to make a snap decision on what comes up... ) Now to clean off my 1917 P1907: it is the little one's third birthday, and family tradition is to cut the cake with a bayonet - but rest assured, it will be thoroughly cleaned and oiled afterwards! Şerefe arkadaşım! Trajan EDIT: Hmmm, 'it will be thoroughly cleaned and oiled afterwards!' yes, talking of the bayonet there, not the cake, but inshallah I'll also be nicely oiled later on... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jscott Posted 26 February , 2012 Share Posted 26 February , 2012 Hi Trajan Nice buy! It would be good to see some photos when you receive the bayonet. I think the easiest way to differentiate between German/ Austrian ersatz scabbards is whether or not there is a throat. The German version has a throat and has a greater circumference than the Austrian. J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 5 March , 2012 Author Share Posted 5 March , 2012 Well, the new mosin-nagant with ersatz scabbard has finally arrived (unbelievable weather here, with repeated snow and only one day above zero in the past week!). And here are the photo's. The condition is reasonable (in fact quite good for Turkey!), if nowhere near Jscott's nice little example. It will need quite a bit of TLC (apart from anything else the collar is rusted solid), but I guess it will eventually come up somewhat better. (BTW, a web search of these M1891's revealed many that are badly pitted around the socket area - different degree of metal tempering from the blade?) I haven't done a full length photo but the scabbard ends in a blunt tip - no finial. And as you can see there is no throat to the scabbard, while green corrosion around the fog stud indicates brazing. I can just about make out that there is a serial number on the reverse side of the socket and at least one letter on the obverse side, but no clues as to what they might be yet. Did I make the right choice? Well, as you guys all know, the correct response to that question has to be 'Are you happy with what you got?', and yes, I am, a nice russian M 91 that is also an erstaz, so fits my WWI/erstaz collection - but I would still like a Turkish 1903 to fill out that part of the collection! Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jscott Posted 6 March , 2012 Share Posted 6 March , 2012 Lovely bayonet Trajan - it actually looks to be in very good condition underneath that very light surface rust. Hopefully you can bring out some of the markings with a light clean. And I agree re the pitting around the socket - mine is actually fairly rough all over. And in terms of whether you made the right decision... it seem to be win/win - youve acquired a nice m91 ersatz, and you can now keep your eyes open for a m1903 to go with it! The search is often the best part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 7 March , 2012 Author Share Posted 7 March , 2012 Thanks for the compliment, Jscott! Yes, there does seem to be a good deal of bright steel on the blade, and most of the socket looks like it might be ok, although pitted along the bottom part where it runs into the blade. The scabbard is certainly rather badly pitted, though, and I haven't tested what metal it is yet. I just have to wait for some bright and sunnier and warmer weather so that I can get on the balcony and settle down to some proper cleaning, although I'll probably give the socket and the ring some gun oil or WD-40 to be going on with. BTW, I suspect that you have already seen this link, but if not, there is an Old Smithy page on these - http://www.old-smith...osin-nagant.htm The text is a bit patchy, written by a non-native English speaker, and it lacks photo's of some of the types discussed, but it is of interest to see that the bottom part of the sockets on these pointed things are frequently badly pitted. Poor metal tempering? There are some better ones shown on http://www.mosinnaga...gendarmerie.asp, a web-site I haven't explored properly yet, but this link goes to a page that shows ersatz scabbards with and without throats (i.e., the 'German' and 'Austrian' types), and also frogs for these. As for the 1903, well, it's still there, and I am currently in negotiations with my dear wife about busting the monthly finances again.... This time I'm trying the - 'But darling, it is Turkish, and it's part of your cultural heritage - it may even have been used by your great-grandfather!' approach, so keep the fingers crossed! Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sawdoc34 Posted 14 March , 2012 Share Posted 14 March , 2012 Real nice bayonet Trajan, really like the scabbard mate Never realised that they made scabbards as only read up on the russians carrying them back to front on the end of their rifles. Great find, must be quite scarce..... Be back from my latest working trip to glasgow on Thursday with a few new additions, nowt as good as that tho' Cheers, Aleck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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