Chris TH Posted 22 February , 2012 Share Posted 22 February , 2012 What rank insignia did RNVR officers of the Royal Naval Division wear on their khaki uniforms from Gallipoli onwards? I am presuming that at Antwerp they wore their blue uniforms with wavy rings - would that be correct? Many thanks for your help - Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horatio2 Posted 22 February , 2012 Share Posted 22 February , 2012 Officers wore khaki uniforms at Antwerp. From embarkation for Gallipoli they wore naval sleeve stripes and equivalent Army shoulder ranks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeldr Posted 22 February , 2012 Share Posted 22 February , 2012 To illustrate H2's reply please see this link and for an example taken at Antwerp then this link Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan Saunders Posted 22 February , 2012 Share Posted 22 February , 2012 This might be self-evident but the rings on khaki were green. Regards, Jonathan S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeldr Posted 22 February , 2012 Share Posted 22 February , 2012 This might be self-evident but the rings on khaki were green. Jonathan, Not many people know that! Including yours truly Thanks & best regards Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris TH Posted 22 February , 2012 Author Share Posted 22 February , 2012 Many thanks for your replies and help - much appreciated. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris TH Posted 22 February , 2012 Author Share Posted 22 February , 2012 To illustrate H2's reply please see this link and for an example taken at Antwerp then this link Michael Thanks for the linked photos. I see that the first is of a sub-lieut who subsequently became a 'captain'. Presumably his would be an army captain rather than a 4-ring naval capt. Does that suggest there was some ambivalence about naval/army ranks? I think I read that Shute, who took over from Paris in 1916 as Div Commander, got very cross about the naval brigades retaining their naval ranks, beards, terminology and habits, which suggests no such ambivalence. Grateful if you could shed any light on that? I'm coming to the conclusion that the RND is the most fascinating formation in WW1. Many thanks - Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horatio2 Posted 22 February , 2012 Share Posted 22 February , 2012 Frederick John MATTHEWS was a sub lieutenant (photo) later lieutenant RNVR and was never a "Captain" in anything (although lieutenant RNVR is equivalent to army captain). He may have won an MC but he was also dismissed from the service for being drunk on duty. Shute did not get his way and was moved on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeldr Posted 22 February , 2012 Share Posted 22 February , 2012 Chris, The Shute episode is quite complex; no one could have foreseen that General Paris would be so severely and grievously wounded, but somehow one gets the impression that 'The Army' were just waiting for their chance to bring this alien unit, The 63rd (Royal Naval) Division, into line with their own way of doing things. Cameron Shute was known as a martinet and his first salvo in this battle was fired just two weeks after Paris was wounded. Then by 7th November he had also sent in an unfavourable report to V Corps. There is a touch of Army schizophrenia here, for as Captain Christopher Page RN points out, “Some may find it an interesting comment on British generalship during the First World War that, only a few days after so damning an indictment, the Divisional and Corps Commanders were still prepared to allow this unit, assessed as being so far below the standard of Army units, to attack one of the strongest positions then existing on the Western Front, and one which had bloodily repulsed previous assaults.” The reference is to the Battle of The Ancre. Shute's proposed changes were passed on up the chain of command and eventually reached Whitehall. Meetings between the interested parties culminated in one held on 5th February 1917, chaired by Lord Derby for the War Office and attended by the First Lord, Sir Edward Carson. Carson's arguments held sway and on 7th March 1917 the War Office acknowledged that “As the proposal to recognize the 63rd (Royal Naval) Division on a military basis has, for the present been abandoned … … there appears to be no advantage in transferring their numbers to Army Vote A.” Twelve days later Shute was relieved in command by Major General Lawrie, who, as far as I can tell, had an excellent relationship with the division Shute did not, however, suffer for his part in this affair; he went on to greater things, as indeed did the RND! [for further details see 'Command in the Royal Naval Division – A military biography of Brigadier General A M Asquith DSO' by Christopher Page, published by Spellmount, 1999, ISBN 1-86227-048-1] regards Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris TH Posted 22 February , 2012 Author Share Posted 22 February , 2012 Many thanks, H2 and Michael. Fascinating stuff. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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